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colug-digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 03 : Number 041
Re: [COLUG] Any comments on Mr. Stallman's presentation
Re: [COLUG] Any comments on Mr. Stallman's presentation
Red Hat upgrade
Re: [COLUG] RR Question
Re: [COLUG] anybody want to go to the SGI university thing?
Re: [COLUG] Red Hat upgrade
Re: [COLUG] Red Hat upgrade
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:11:18 -0500 (EST)
From: hunter <hunter@owlriver.com>
Subject: Re: [COLUG] Any comments on Mr. Stallman's presentation
> 10% older dudes who look like they should be
> on the cover of Wired.
... indeed; This shot was set up with that kind of in mind --
note the 'Chuck' horns (RMS did not mention any of the BSD
variants ONCE during his presentation, nor respond to my
'provocation' about the BSD license and PERL artistic license):
http://www.owlriver.com/projects/stallman000124/graphics/Stallman_BSD.JPG
> 3 girls total, and 2 of them were there
> with their boyfriends.
The other is a COLUG list member, Karen N, and seems a nice lady
...
http://www.owlriver.com/projects/stallman000124/graphics/Karen_cropped.JPG
As to RMS being a refugee from the late 60's ... yes, that _is_
a recorder in his hip pocket ... but Karen still enjoyed the M
and M's as Jim P looked on
http://www.owlriver.com/projects/stallman000124/graphics/RMS_KN_JEP.JPG
The worst of the shots have been tossed out, and some cropping
performed. The collection is compiled at:
http://www.owlriver.com/projects/stallman000124/
- --
end
==========================================
Copyright (C) 2000 R Phillip Hunter
hunter@owlriver.com NIC: PH2711 (US)
Owl River Company 614 - 221 - 0695
"The World is Open to Linux (tm)"
... Open Source LINUX solutions ...
info@owlriver.com
Columbus, OH
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:50:09 -0500
From: kometboy <kometboy@neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [COLUG] Any comments on Mr. Stallman's presentation
hunter wrote:
> The worst of the shots have been tossed out, and some cropping
> performed. The collection is compiled at:
>
> http://www.owlriver.com/projects/stallman000124/
>
Nice shots Phil. Of course the Columbus contingent of Colug was quite
fortunate. I couldn't leave Mansfield til school was out and the parents
had picked up the kids. I ended up out in the hallway, where I could
hear RMS ok, but only got to see him when someone exited and the crowd
shifted enough to see him. Now I can see what I heard.
kometboy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:14:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex Dukat <dukat@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Red Hat upgrade
I now present a question, but first the background. Many of you who
recognize my name, already know that I am fairly well versed in Linux and
in Debian in particular. I have found Debian to my satisfaction. The one
important feature of Debian I believe is a must for businesses, is its
ease of upgrading through dselect and apt-get. When upgrading the new
files and files to be upgraded are shown at the top of the list for quick
perusal. They also have a special security site that works with it, so
that it is only a matter of doing an update to get the latest fixes for
security.
Now on to the question, how does Red Hat handle this? I have tried a
couple of installs, one at work, and found it lacking. If there is an
easy way to upgrade, and I don't mean by buying another CD, it is not
apparent. I have tried GnoRPM and found that it will gladly tell me about
dependency problems, but it will not let me fix them without going back
through the entire list (Debian brings up a list that can be used to
put packages on hold, uninstall, and even return the selections to their
previous state if one wishes to return from selecting a package to
install), and after correcting the original dependency problems I find new
ones cropping up. This is just a vicious cycle. I also tried to do a
mass upgrade over FTP and had to laugh. The program I found to do this
required me to select each installed package that could be upgraded and
tell it to upgrade. So, as one can see my first experiences with Red Hat
have been pitiful. The rest of running Red Hat though I have not had many
problems, but I feel that the ease of updating and upgrading is vital in
the business world. I cannot stand how some of the UNIX systems do it.
Any response is welcome. Please put me in the wrong and remove my
frustrations.
To help, the following I must have. Blind upgrade of everything if
desired, quick and easy way to fix dependency problems, and when desired I
must be able to see all the packages that are to be upgraded so that I can
quickly decide which to allow and not.
Alex
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:22:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Richard Rager <root@penguinmaster.com>
Subject: Re: [COLUG] RR Question
On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Jim Singleton wrote:
> A friend asked to help in installing RR access on his Linux
> box, I thought it was a simple DHCP affair. Needless to say
> the tech support line was less than helpful about anwsering
> inquires about internal addresses and routes. Can someone
> give me a quick rundown on the conection procedures?
>
Jim simple DHCP will work. I do it all the time. If you want to do some
thing with RR you do need to logon.
Enjoy,
Richard
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:49:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Richard Rager <root@penguinmaster.com>
Subject: Re: [COLUG] anybody want to go to the SGI university thing?
On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Mark Nielsen wrote:
> http://www.sgi.com/events/linuxu/locations.html#Cleveland
>
> I haven't signed up, and I assume it doesn't cost any money.
> If it costs anything besides a meal, I won't go.
>
I want to the one in Dayton, OH. It was very good. Alot of good
speakers. You may want to go. I do not know what I will be up too.
I would like to see the sylibus.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:30:00 -0500
From: "Jeremy Kuhnash" <kuhnash.3@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [COLUG] Red Hat upgrade
Hi Alex,
> Now on to the question, how does Red Hat handle this?
Directly from a standard install this is simply answered: it doesn't.
Let me give background on this topic a little more broadly. Most OS users
almost always run into the same train of thought - 'Why can't I get this
damned thing to easily do x?!?!?!' where x is any feature/system that lets
any task be done easily or intuitively. This is found across the board in
every OS and in every format. I bitched continuously because the likes of
Solaris doesn't have a simple way to configure an interface whatsoever.
Matter of fact after 2 days of digging through docs I'm still stuck on what
is going on and how to configure the interface to receive an IP via DHCP at
boot. I'm sure once learned that it's soon forgotten that there was any
other way....
Getting back to the RPM vs. Debian issue of packages, yeah, RedHat actually
sucks comparatively. Fact is though, most of us who were born and raised on
Redhat simply know the drill. If we want to upgrade gnome, we go to
redhat/updates on sunsite (most likely) and try rpm -U (upgrades) until we
get all the deps installed. With Debian and the BSD's , this is wonderfully
done with the idea of 'ports' or 'apt-get'. No doubt, its a clear winner.
Also, since with Debian there is a clear maintainer for every package and
that the system in place is so well designed that the ports/apt-get tree
cannot be broken. It's hard to see why anyone else would do it any other
way. The only thing that us RPM users can depend on is the standard packages
being re-released under the updates section of the FTP site. There are
clearly many disadvantages to this, including that updates are not updated
after there is a new release, manually finding RPMS, etc. So your options
are simple -- use some 'auto update' script that will most likely break (as
gnorpm mostly is) or use a good system to automate things as much as
possible. As I understand, with debian you either run dev or current stable
and your system is always up to date. So yeah, listen redhat users!! Debian
is good, if your tired of messing with RPM's, please switch over.
By the way, I run 0 debian machines and it's for a quite simple reason: no
FTP installation that works well. At my personal home LAN I run my systems
by 'purpose' and not by completeness, I guess. What I mean is that I have a
main linux machine that doesn't even have a floppy or cdrom in it. Just
ether and hard disk. But, I have a nice file server with the cdrom, floppy,
cd-r, a couple uw scsi drives including space for my system wide /home (or
H: as it is on my windows machine.) Simply said, the Debian installer is
terrible terrible terrible. I can't think of any other OS (including ALL
BSDs and Solaris) that is worse. If it had a real, nice and user friendly
installer that required at most 'light thinking' then I think it would be
the overall best Linux distribution. Of course, maybe that's why things like
Storm Linux (www.stormix.com) should take off...
That's my explanation for what your asking. If I missed the point I
apologize -- I kind of parlayed this into a forum of dislike for a few
things : the debian installer and the overall RPM pain in the ass.
If there are kids reading this, I apologize for the language.
I can say one positive thing: stuff could be worse, the standard could still
be .tgz. Hmmm, I guess it still is to some degree -- its the way that you
can always revert to.
Jeremy Kuhnash
kuhnash@linux.com
I have tried a
> couple of installs, one at work, and found it lacking. If there is an
> easy way to upgrade, and I don't mean by buying another CD, it is not
> apparent. I have tried GnoRPM and found that it will gladly tell me about
> dependency problems, but it will not let me fix them without going back
> through the entire list (Debian brings up a list that can be used to
> put packages on hold, uninstall, and even return the selections to their
> previous state if one wishes to return from selecting a package to
> install), and after correcting the original dependency problems I find new
> ones cropping up. This is just a vicious cycle. I also tried to do a
> mass upgrade over FTP and had to laugh. The program I found to do this
> required me to select each installed package that could be upgraded and
> tell it to upgrade. So, as one can see my first experiences with Red Hat
> have been pitiful. The rest of running Red Hat though I have not had many
> problems, but I feel that the ease of updating and upgrading is vital in
> the business world. I cannot stand how some of the UNIX systems do it.
>
> Any response is welcome. Please put me in the wrong and remove my
> frustrations.
>
> To help, the following I must have. Blind upgrade of everything if
> desired, quick and easy way to fix dependency problems, and when desired I
> must be able to see all the packages that are to be upgraded so that I can
> quickly decide which to allow and not.
>
> Alex
>
> -
> COLUG mailing list tag line: =======================================
> Want to know more: http://static.colug.net/
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:57:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Chad Cunningham <ccunning@math.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: [COLUG] Red Hat upgrade
What I really hate about rpm...
Quoteth the man page:
rpm -U [install-options] <package_file>+
This upgrades or installs the package currently installed
to the version in the new RPM. This is the same as
install, except all other version of the package are
removed from the system.
Note that all other version<s> (sic) are removed from the system... Seeing
as security and other updates are distributed as rpm's, this means you
can't back out of a bad update. In most cases this means if you get have
to back out, you have to go grab a previous version from your local
mirror. Not horrible, but it's still more work than rpm --revert or
something. Plus if it were your only machine, and you did an ftp install
so you don't have any local media, and an upgrade actually prevents your
machine from booting, you've got a bit of a pain on your hands.
- --
Chad Cunningham
ccunning@math.ohio-state.edu
Only 233 days until RSA Patent expiration!
On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Jeremy Kuhnash wrote:
> Hi Alex,
>
> > Now on to the question, how does Red Hat handle this?
> Directly from a standard install this is simply answered: it doesn't.
>
> Let me give background on this topic a little more broadly. Most OS users
> almost always run into the same train of thought - 'Why can't I get this
> damned thing to easily do x?!?!?!' where x is any feature/system that lets
> any task be done easily or intuitively. This is found across the board in
> every OS and in every format. I bitched continuously because the likes of
> Solaris doesn't have a simple way to configure an interface whatsoever.
> Matter of fact after 2 days of digging through docs I'm still stuck on what
> is going on and how to configure the interface to receive an IP via DHCP at
> boot. I'm sure once learned that it's soon forgotten that there was any
> other way....
>
> Getting back to the RPM vs. Debian issue of packages, yeah, RedHat actually
> sucks comparatively. Fact is though, most of us who were born and raised on
> Redhat simply know the drill. If we want to upgrade gnome, we go to
> redhat/updates on sunsite (most likely) and try rpm -U (upgrades) until we
> get all the deps installed. With Debian and the BSD's , this is wonderfully
> done with the idea of 'ports' or 'apt-get'. No doubt, its a clear winner.
>
> Also, since with Debian there is a clear maintainer for every package and
> that the system in place is so well designed that the ports/apt-get tree
> cannot be broken. It's hard to see why anyone else would do it any other
> way. The only thing that us RPM users can depend on is the standard packages
> being re-released under the updates section of the FTP site. There are
> clearly many disadvantages to this, including that updates are not updated
> after there is a new release, manually finding RPMS, etc. So your options
> are simple -- use some 'auto update' script that will most likely break (as
> gnorpm mostly is) or use a good system to automate things as much as
> possible. As I understand, with debian you either run dev or current stable
> and your system is always up to date. So yeah, listen redhat users!! Debian
> is good, if your tired of messing with RPM's, please switch over.
>
> By the way, I run 0 debian machines and it's for a quite simple reason: no
> FTP installation that works well. At my personal home LAN I run my systems
> by 'purpose' and not by completeness, I guess. What I mean is that I have a
> main linux machine that doesn't even have a floppy or cdrom in it. Just
> ether and hard disk. But, I have a nice file server with the cdrom, floppy,
> cd-r, a couple uw scsi drives including space for my system wide /home (or
> H: as it is on my windows machine.) Simply said, the Debian installer is
> terrible terrible terrible. I can't think of any other OS (including ALL
> BSDs and Solaris) that is worse. If it had a real, nice and user friendly
> installer that required at most 'light thinking' then I think it would be
> the overall best Linux distribution. Of course, maybe that's why things like
> Storm Linux (www.stormix.com) should take off...
>
>
> That's my explanation for what your asking. If I missed the point I
> apologize -- I kind of parlayed this into a forum of dislike for a few
> things : the debian installer and the overall RPM pain in the ass.
>
> If there are kids reading this, I apologize for the language.
>
> I can say one positive thing: stuff could be worse, the standard could still
> be .tgz. Hmmm, I guess it still is to some degree -- its the way that you
> can always revert to.
>
> Jeremy Kuhnash
> kuhnash@linux.com
>
>
>
> I have tried a
> > couple of installs, one at work, and found it lacking. If there is an
> > easy way to upgrade, and I don't mean by buying another CD, it is not
> > apparent. I have tried GnoRPM and found that it will gladly tell me about
> > dependency problems, but it will not let me fix them without going back
> > through the entire list (Debian brings up a list that can be used to
> > put packages on hold, uninstall, and even return the selections to their
> > previous state if one wishes to return from selecting a package to
> > install), and after correcting the original dependency problems I find new
> > ones cropping up. This is just a vicious cycle. I also tried to do a
> > mass upgrade over FTP and had to laugh. The program I found to do this
> > required me to select each installed package that could be upgraded and
> > tell it to upgrade. So, as one can see my first experiences with Red Hat
> > have been pitiful. The rest of running Red Hat though I have not had many
> > problems, but I feel that the ease of updating and upgrading is vital in
> > the business world. I cannot stand how some of the UNIX systems do it.
> >
> > Any response is welcome. Please put me in the wrong and remove my
> > frustrations.
> >
> > To help, the following I must have. Blind upgrade of everything if
> > desired, quick and easy way to fix dependency problems, and when desired I
> > must be able to see all the packages that are to be upgraded so that I can
> > quickly decide which to allow and not.
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > -
> > COLUG mailing list tag line: =======================================
> > Want to know more: http://static.colug.net/
> >
>
> -
> COLUG mailing list tag line: =======================================
> Want to know more: http://static.colug.net/
>
------------------------------
End of colug-digest V3 #41
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