From linux at litenverden.org  Mon Dec  1 08:54:12 2003
From: linux at litenverden.org (linux@litenverden.org)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:46 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gentoo Install
In-Reply-To: <20031201015641.GC32117%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: 
     <3FC1379E.9040102@skippy.net><20031124040246.GA11208%jmglov@jmglov.net
     ><51039.216.28.8.212.1069810641.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com><5
     2011.216.28.8.212.1069814733.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com><2003
     1126155800.GC17541%jmglov@jmglov.net> 
     <3FC75053.5040607@litenverden.org><3FC83656.70504@litenverden.org> 
     <3FC8D110.3070007@litenverden.org><3FC9274B.6000805@litenverden.org> 
     <3FC93AF5.3070300@litenverden.org> 
     <20031201015641.GC32117%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: 
     <40729.198.234.62.130.1070286852.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com>

<snip>

See comments in text.

1. In section 2 -- If you have a laptop and PCMCIA, you must select a
>> Live CD boot option if you want a network.  The option is "gentoo
>> dopcmcia".
>
> My Guide, being of the Quick N Dirty variety, walks you through a
> network-less
> installation. I choose to resolve the above bug by making this clear in
> the
> introductory paragraph:
>
> http://www.jmglov.net/unix/qnd/qnd-gentoo.html#intro

That's fine Josh. Like many guys, I frequently don't read the
instructions;-)  Also, as a newbie I take things pretty literally.

>
>> 2. In section 11 -- "rm /boot/boot" not "rm /boot/book" as indicated.
>> If a newbie (like me) does what's written, /boot/boot will not be found
>> nor removed.
>
> Fixed!
>
> http://www.jmglov.net/unix/qnd/qnd-gentoo.html#step_11_clean_boot
>
>> 3. In section 16 -- the GRUB report did not show the path names
>> indicated on my install (assuming I did it right).  I did not log the
>> output.  If I do this again, I'll log it.
>
> OK, but this did not cause problems, right?

Nope.  Not a problem.  Just worried me a bit.  I think everything is fine.

>
>> 4. In section 19 -- The second "Gnome" emerge subsection should be
>> "KDE".
>
> Oops. Fixed!
>
> http://www.jmglov.net/unix/qnd/qnd-gentoo.html#step_19_kde
>
>> I think I'll let this thing set for a week, then I'll try to see how to
>> get the USB mouse to work and how to get the system to see my floppy.
>
> Let me know if you need a hand. You've earned it with your excellent feed-
> back! :)

<snip>

Josh:

I really appreciated your help (and the demo this month).  I think I can
make the switch to Gentoo.  It's not as hard as I thought it would be.

George


From pat at linuxcolumbus.com  Mon Dec  1 16:42:33 2003
From: pat at linuxcolumbus.com (pat@linuxcolumbus.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RedHat Free?
Message-ID: <20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com>

Well almost.

I just replaced the rh 7.3 box my wife uses with a AMD athlon 2400+ and
Mandrake 9.2.  Never used Mandrake, but the install was smooth and
everything configured easily, with a few minor problems.  The built in
sound on the motherboard is screwy.  I get some nasty sounding noise from
the speaker every now and them.  Chipset is a VIA82XX.  

The other thing is the internet connection sharing didn't work from the GUI
based tools.  I looked and it seemed to be a problem with the shorewall
configuration.  Since I was going to use that anyway for my firewall rules
setup I just transferred over my working setup from the old box, compared
files and found the /etc/shorewall/masq had a line with eth0 and nothing
else. I removed that, restarted shorewall and things seemed to work.  

Otherwise. Great distro and only paid $13.95 for a copy of Linux Format at
Borders to get it.  

Pat
From colug at the-testas.net  Mon Dec  1 19:57:04 2003
From: colug at the-testas.net (Joe Testa)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] creating dvd from vhs question
Message-ID: <3FCBE360.6090803@the-testas.net>

Ok i am the proud owner of a canon zr65mc dv camera.

i've gotten video converted from there to vcd, i now want to take old 
vhs tapes run them thru thr analog <-> digital converter(which is part 
of the camera) and make DVDs.

reading up on dvd format, there are .VOB files, how does one get 
.mpeg(.mpg) converted to .VOB files.

on my kids machine i'm using the software(for windoze) that came with it 
to do the capturing(have not attempted it with any of the linux 
software, any recommendations?) and conversion but the burner is on the 
linux box which is where i'd rather do all of the work.

I know i read a while back about someone here doing video work, would 
appreciate any pointers.

thanks,

joe


From skippy at skippy.net  Mon Dec  1 21:22:28 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] creating dvd from vhs question
In-Reply-To: <3FCBE360.6090803@the-testas.net>
References: <3FCBE360.6090803@the-testas.net>
Message-ID: <3FCBF764.9080808@skippy.net>

Joe Testa wrote:
> Ok i am the proud owner of a canon zr65mc dv camera.

Cool!

> i've gotten video converted from there to vcd, i now want to take old 
> vhs tapes run them thru thr analog <-> digital converter(which is part 
> of the camera) and make DVDs.
> 
> reading up on dvd format, there are .VOB files, how does one get 
> .mpeg(.mpg) converted to .VOB files.

Check dvdauthor:
http://dvdauthor.sourceforge.net/
The latest alpha versions can do some pretty fancy stuff.

Here's a reasonable introduction, but it references an older version:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6953


> on my kids machine i'm using the software(for windoze) that came with it 
> to do the capturing(have not attempted it with any of the linux 
> software, any recommendations?) and conversion but the burner is on the 
> linux box which is where i'd rather do all of the work.

Kino, or the associated dvgrab:
http://kino.schirmacher.de/
Kino works great for me.  The AV/C controls allow me to drive my Sony 
TRV-350 from within Kino.  Neat.

> I know i read a while back about someone here doing video work, would 
> appreciate any pointers.

Here are some other links I've gathered:
http://www.pcxperience.org/james/dvd/presentations/20031016/lowres/text0.html
http://www.tappin.me.uk/Linux/dvd.html
http://outflux.net/unix/software/GOPchop/
http://mlug.missouri.edu/~markrages/tavi/index.php?page=GopFixup

I hope that helps!

From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Mon Dec  1 21:52:26 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] creating dvd from vhs question
In-Reply-To: <3FCBF764.9080808@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <002501c3b87f$523eca70$6e01a8c0@bighector>

Also do a quick search for Cinelerra.  From Heroinwarrior.  It's an
advanced video editing application.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: colug-bounces@colug.net [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net] On Behalf
Of Scott Merrill
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 9:22 PM
To: Central OH Linux User Group
Subject: Re: [COLUG] creating dvd from vhs question

Joe Testa wrote:
> Ok i am the proud owner of a canon zr65mc dv camera.

Cool!

> i've gotten video converted from there to vcd, i now want to take old 
> vhs tapes run them thru thr analog <-> digital converter(which is part

> of the camera) and make DVDs.
> 
> reading up on dvd format, there are .VOB files, how does one get 
> .mpeg(.mpg) converted to .VOB files.

Check dvdauthor:
http://dvdauthor.sourceforge.net/
The latest alpha versions can do some pretty fancy stuff.

Here's a reasonable introduction, but it references an older version:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6953


> on my kids machine i'm using the software(for windoze) that came with
it 
> to do the capturing(have not attempted it with any of the linux 
> software, any recommendations?) and conversion but the burner is on
the 
> linux box which is where i'd rather do all of the work.

Kino, or the associated dvgrab:
http://kino.schirmacher.de/
Kino works great for me.  The AV/C controls allow me to drive my Sony 
TRV-350 from within Kino.  Neat.

> I know i read a while back about someone here doing video work, would 
> appreciate any pointers.

Here are some other links I've gathered:
http://www.pcxperience.org/james/dvd/presentations/20031016/lowres/text0
.html
http://www.tappin.me.uk/Linux/dvd.html
http://outflux.net/unix/software/GOPchop/
http://mlug.missouri.edu/~markrages/tavi/index.php?page=GopFixup

I hope that helps!

_______________________________________________
colug mailing list
colug@colug.net
http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu  Mon Dec  1 22:25:08 2003
From: blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu (Wade Pinkston)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question
In-Reply-To: <1070229293.3545.1.camel@localhost>
References: <20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com>
	<1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost> <1070229293.3545.1.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <3FCC0614.4070901@bugs.osu.edu>

in RH 7.3 and < .  if you ran the gdmsetup there was a list of users 
that you could edit.  In 9.0 I have know idea how to control the listed 
name.

George H. Yeager wrote:

>This has got to be a really silly question, but, in Gnome, how do I set
>the user logon window to hide the user name?
>
>George
>
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>  
>

-- 
Wade Pinkston 
The Ohio State University 
Extension Entomology
1991 Kenny Rd 
Columbus OH 43210 
phone: (614) 292-5274 

Ipsa scientia potestas est 

Windows,a
32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch to an
8 bit operating system internally coded for a
4 bit processor written by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition


From blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu  Mon Dec  1 22:41:21 2003
From: blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu (Wade Pinkston)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question
In-Reply-To: <3FCC0614.4070901@bugs.osu.edu>
References: <20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com>
	<1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost> <1070229293.3545.1.camel@localhost>
	<3FCC0614.4070901@bugs.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <3FCC09E1.2090100@bugs.osu.edu>

Found it.  In the /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf file edit the

# These are things excluded from the face browser, not from logging in
Exclude=bin,daemon,adm,lp,sync,shutdown,halt,mail,news,uucp,operator,nobody,gdm,postgres,pvm,rpm

line.


Wade Pinkston wrote:

> in RH 7.3 and < .  if you ran the gdmsetup there was a list of users 
> that you could edit.  In 9.0 I have know idea how to control the 
> listed name.
>
> George H. Yeager wrote:
>
>> This has got to be a really silly question, but, in Gnome, how do I set
>> the user logon window to hide the user name?
>>
>> George
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> colug mailing list
>> colug@colug.net
>> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>>  
>>
>

-- 
Wade Pinkston 
The Ohio State University 
Extension Entomology
1991 Kenny Rd 
Columbus OH 43210 
phone: (614) 292-5274 

Ipsa scientia potestas est 

Windows,a
32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch to an
8 bit operating system internally coded for a
4 bit processor written by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition


From lshurr at columbus.rr.com  Tue Dec  2 00:02:01 2003
From: lshurr at columbus.rr.com (Larry A. Shurr)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Unexpected Mozilla error in Suse 9.0 (gtk)
Message-ID: <3FCC1CC9.6020209@columbus.rr.com>

Hi gang,

Install free Suse 9.0 (the network install).  Went well, runs nice, even 
on low end machine (HP Vectra VL - PII 266/256 MB RAM).  I noticed that 
the free Suse Linux does not include Sun Java JRE or JDK.  It's easy 
enough to work around this using Java JDK for Linux from java.sun.com 
though you have to right your own /etc/java/java2.conf file to conform 
to Suse expectations (Suse-provided Open Office 1.1 wants one, for 
instance).  I'll provide mine if you're interested.  What surprised me 
when I tried to run jchess, a little Java chess game in Mozilla, Mozilla 
blows off, but not because of Java (Konquerer runs jchess just fine with 
the Sun-supplied JDK installed).  The failure is evidently in gtk, text 
of assert failure message follows:

	(mozilla-bin:6798): Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkwidget.c:
	line 4101 (gtk_widget_get_style): assertion `GTK_IS_WIDGET
	(widget)' failed

Have I missed something, or is this something Suse should fix?

Larry
-- 
Larry A. Shurr (lshurr@columbus.rr.com)


From JBalint at alldata.net  Tue Dec  2 09:27:17 2003
From: JBalint at alldata.net (Balint, Jess)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:47 2005
Subject: [COLUG] As Seen on Slashdot...
Message-ID: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF76@scad1exis02.alldata.net>

I would like to post a follow-up to this from somebody I know from Ohio GOP.

Begin quoted message:



HB 179 actually covers several issues: gas station drive-offs, movie piracy
and environmental audits.  Regarding the Slashdot concerns, the bill
basically expands the current shop-lifting laws to include movie piracy.  It
specifically states "No person, without the written consent of the owner or
lessee of the facility and of the licensor of the motion picture, shall
knowingly operate an audiovisual recording function of a device in a
facility in which a motion picture is being shown."
 
Existing law permits a store merchant to hold a suspected shoplifter for a
"reasonable" period of time while authorities are notified and for purposes
of investigation.  The new law permits the owner, lessee or employee of a
facility in which a motion picture is being shown (who has probable cause to
believe that a person is or has been operating an audiovisual recording
function of a device in violation of the bill's new motion picture piracy
prohibition) to detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable
length of time within the facility or its immediate vicinity.
 
The claim that if you "walk into a store that sells video gear and hit
'Record' on any camcorder, digital camera or PDA; the first click is a
misdemeanor, the rest are felonies" is technically accurate if what is being
recorded is for the purposes of piracy.  In other words, if I go to Best
Buy, put a VHS tape in a machine that's playing a movie, and walk out with
that tape, I've stolen property and can be detained as a shoplifter.  Same
goes for shooting video of a movie inside a theater or a retail store.  
 
This isn't a dumb law.  It's basic piracy/copyright protection, and it's on
the books in all 50 states.  This is just an update to cover new techniques
used by bootleggers.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colug-bounces@colug.net 
> [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net]On Behalf
> Of Jason Martens
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 4:03 PM
> To: colug@colug.net; aniamte-active-members@derik.org
> Subject: [COLUG] As Seen on Slashdot...
> 
> 
> Posted by Hemos on Monday November 24, @07:42AM
> from the stupid-stupid-laws dept.
> 
> Tsar writes "The Ohio State Legislature has passed House Bill 
> #179 (PDF
> / HTML / Status) which, among other unrelated issues, makes it illegal
> to make an AV-recording in any theater or retail store where a motion
> picture is being displayed. Walk into a store that sells 
> video gear and
> hit 'Record' on any camcorder, digital camera or PDA; the 
> first click is
> a misdemeanor, the rest are felonies. Oh, and the janitor (or any
> employee) can detain you in or near the store until police arrive if
> they think you hit 'Record'. Actually recording any of a film (or even
> knowing that a film was being shown) is not required for a conviction.
> This bill now awaits Governor Bob Taft's signature--Ohioans, let him
> know what a bad law this is!"
> 
> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/24/123209
> 
> 
>      How did the hell did we miss this?!
> 
> 
> Jason Martens
> jason@animedownload.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
From linux at litenverden.org  Tue Dec  2 10:23:19 2003
From: linux at litenverden.org (linux@litenverden.org)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question
In-Reply-To: <3FCC09E1.2090100@bugs.osu.edu>
References: 
	<20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com><1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost>
	<1070229293.3545.1.camel@localhost><3FCC0614.4070901@bugs.osu.edu>
	<3FCC09E1.2090100@bugs.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <59886.198.234.62.130.1070378599.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com>

> Found it.  In the /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf file edit the
>
> # These are things excluded from the face browser, not from logging in
> Exclude=bin,daemon,adm,lp,sync,shutdown,halt,mail,news,uucp,operator,nobody,gdm,postgres,pvm,rpm
>
> line.

<snip>

>> George H. Yeager wrote:
>>
>>> This has got to be a really silly question, but, in Gnome, how do I set
>>> the user logon window to hide the user name?
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> colug mailing list
>>> colug@colug.net
>>> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>>>
>>>
>>


<snip>

Wade:

Unfortunately, no such directory/file.  I'll fire a note off the the
Mandrake list.

George

From colug at jmglov.net  Tue Dec  2 10:55:53 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question
In-Reply-To: 
     <59886.198.234.62.130.1070378599.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com>
References: 
	<20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com><1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost><1070229293.3545.1.camel@localhost><3FCC0614.4070901@bugs.osu.edu><3FCC09E1.2090100@bugs.osu.edu>
	<59886.198.234.62.130.1070378599.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com>
Message-ID: <4354.24.123.50.150.1070380553.squirrel@www.jmglov.net>

Quoth linux@litenverden.org

>> Found it.  In the /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf file edit the
>
> Unfortunately, no such directory/file.  I'll fire a note off the the
> Mandrake list.

Try:

rpm -ql gdm | grep gdm.conf

This should tell you where the gdm.conf file lives.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From skippy at skippy.net  Tue Dec  2 11:04:47 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] MozillaFirebird puzzler
Message-ID: <4022.216.136.35.122.1070381087.squirrel@www.skippy.net>

At work I'm using MozillaFirebird 0.7 (GTK + Xft) on a Red Hat 9 system
(yum'ed up from 7.3, originally).

Occassionally (less frequently now on RH9, more frequently when I was at
RH8) Mozilla stops loading new webpages.  An open page can be refreshed or
navigated successfully.  Middle clicking links to open them in a new
window fails if the link goes to a different location (server) than the
currently viewed page.  I can press CTRL+T to open a new window and
manually type a URL, but it will never load, eventually presenting me with
a pop-up box stating that the destination could not be found.

The text bar at the bottom of the MozillaFirebird window shows "resolving
domain.com" for whatever domain I'm trying to access.  I can successfully
ping the domain from a command line, and Konqueror will load the page just
fine -- even while MozillaFiebird is still trying.

The only solution I've found is to close MozillaFirebird and immediately
open it up again.  Any clues or suggestions for a more lasting fix?

Thanks!
From whooper at freeshell.org  Tue Dec  2 11:30:52 2003
From: whooper at freeshell.org (William Hooper)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question 
In-Reply-To: <4354.24.123.50.150.1070380553.squirrel@www.jmglov.net>
References: 
	<20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com><1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost><1070229293.3545.1.camel@localhost><3FCC0614.4070901@bugs.osu.edu><3FCC09E1.2090100@bugs.osu.edu><59886.198.234.62.130.1070378599.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com>
	<4354.24.123.50.150.1070380553.squirrel@www.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <3595.12.29.16.103.1070382652.squirrel@12.29.16.103>


Josh Glover  said:
> Quoth linux@litenverden.org
>
>>> Found it.  In the /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf file edit the
>>
>> Unfortunately, no such directory/file.  I'll fire a note off the the
>> Mandrake list.
>
> Try:
>
> rpm -ql gdm | grep gdm.conf
>
> This should tell you where the gdm.conf file lives.

It's been a while, but doesn't Mandrake use KDM?

-- 
William Hooper
From WKehr at checkfree.com  Tue Dec  2 11:50:54 2003
From: WKehr at checkfree.com (WKehr@checkfree.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Unexpected Mozilla error in Suse 9.0 (gtk)
In-Reply-To: <3FCC1CC9.6020209@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <OF6A08DBE1.EA70AFB2-ON85256DF0.0059FE02-85256DF0.005C8887@checkfree.com>

Larry wrote that he installed the free Susu 9.0.  In discussing the 
/etc/java/java2.conf file he stated:

>   I'll provide mine if you're interested.

Thanks Larry, I'll take one.

In case anyone is interested:
I ftp'd the install tree (minus the source because of disk space) to the 
machine I use most often.  This is several Gig of data. 
Over the years I've gotten in the habit of doing the partitioning before 
running the install so I used the tomsrtbt CD to partition the disk on the 
target machine.
Tonight I'll do the network install.   Then I'll copy the directory tree 
to the new machine to do the install back on the first box. 
-------------- next part --------------
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From jacob at teched.net  Tue Dec  2 12:05:51 2003
From: jacob at teched.net (J. Jacob Hopkins)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] MozillaFirebird puzzler
In-Reply-To: <4022.216.136.35.122.1070381087.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
References: <4022.216.136.35.122.1070381087.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <20031202170551.GA23033@noroute.teched.net>

On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 11:04:47AM -0500, Scott Merrill wrote:

> Occassionally (less frequently now on RH9, more frequently when I was at
> RH8) Mozilla stops loading new webpages.  An open page can be refreshed or
> navigated successfully.

Sounds like something I experienced, though I'd describe it as "Firebird
stops resolving new domain names, old (cached by Firebird) domains
continue to resolve"

I have heard, anecdotally, of a user running into the same issues on the
Win32 Firebird.

> The only solution I've found is to close MozillaFirebird and immediately
> open it up again.  Any clues or suggestions for a more lasting fix?

After a few minutes with, or against, bugzilla I decided my time was best 
spent setting up a proxy and configuring the browser to use it via ip
address.  In my case the (caching) proxy is on a seperate box.  I tested
by running Firebird until resolution failure, enabling the proxy then
continuing with functional browsing.

I have since moved my browser to a different box (RH9, fresh install) for
other reasons (cheaper to buy a new "application server" than additional
"workstation" ram).  I still use the proxy.

Jacob
jacob@teched.net
From john at burroway.net  Tue Dec  2 07:43:15 2003
From: john at burroway.net (John Burroway)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RedHat Free?
In-Reply-To: <1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost>
References: <20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com>
	<1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20031202124314.GA9873@xenophon.m81.net>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 03:25:54PM -0500, George H. Yeager wrote:
> I did the same thing today.  I've been evaluating distros (Gentoo most
> recently).  I was simply blown away by the Mandrake magazine stuff.  It
> installed perfectly with no mental effort.  No X problems, network came
> up fine, USB mouse is OK, floppy and CD-ROM work, and I have Gnome 2.4
> on my tricky little IBM 600x.
> 
> Just as good as RH9.  To be fair, you'll have to join the Mandrake Club
> to get updates.  Cost is a about the same as RH, but the product is more
> current.  Sorta what I wanted my RH9 with Red Hat Network to be.
> 
> Gotta think about this.

Just to throw some fuel onto the fire, mix some metaphors, and provide
some food for thought: Much like Debian, once you install Mandrake, you
can use URPMI to upgrade the whole installation when a new version comes
out. I did this last month, upgrading both my Thinkpad and desktop from
9.1 to 9.2.

John Burroway
john@burroway.net
From john at burroway.net  Tue Dec  2 12:57:16 2003
From: john at burroway.net (John Burroway)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question
In-Reply-To: <3595.12.29.16.103.1070382652.squirrel@12.29.16.103>
References: <4354.24.123.50.150.1070380553.squirrel@www.jmglov.net>
	<3595.12.29.16.103.1070382652.squirrel@12.29.16.103>
Message-ID: <20031202175716.GB9873@xenophon.m81.net>

On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 11:30:52AM -0500, William Hooper wrote:
> It's been a while, but doesn't Mandrake use KDM?

Mandrake uses a customized version of KDM - MdkKDM - by default, but you
can easily switch to XDM or GDM in the Mandrake Control Center.

John Burroway
john@burroway.net
From jim at rossberry.com  Tue Dec  2 13:48:28 2003
From: jim at rossberry.com (Jim Wildman)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RedHat Free?
In-Reply-To: <20031202124314.GA9873@xenophon.m81.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312021346420.3254-100000@newross.rossberry.private>

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, John Burroway wrote:

> Just to throw some fuel onto the fire, mix some metaphors, and provide
> some food for thought: Much like Debian, once you install Mandrake, you
> can use URPMI to upgrade the whole installation when a new version comes
> out. I did this last month, upgrading both my Thinkpad and desktop from
> 9.1 to 9.2.

ditto for Red Hat 7.3, 8.0 and 9.0 to Fedora.  I just did all of them with 
yum -y upgrade
I had to deinstall one program from the 8.0 box because it walked into a
dependency loop during the upgrade.  So 4 commands, 3 upgrades.  Not bad.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE                                jim@rossberry.com
http://www.rossberry.com

From roggenkamps at acm.org  Tue Dec  2 22:43:25 2003
From: roggenkamps at acm.org (Steve Roggenkamp)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] As Seen on Slashdot...
References: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF76@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
Message-ID: <3FCD5BDD.1020608@acm.org>

I am against piracy, but I have several problems with this bill.

1. The bill does not differentiate between casual operation of an 
audiovisual device, such as my Olympus Z3040 digital camera, while 
testing various models while shopping and wholesale attempts to pirate a 
movie.

2. Much pirating of movies occur before they are released to the public. 
 It is not unusual to have pirated versions available before the movie 
is released to first run theaters.  The movie studios should clean up 
their own act, which they are attempting to do; they no longer ship 
copies of movies to people who vote for the Oscars.  Unfortunately this 
has the effect of discriminating against small, independent films that 
do not have a wide distribution according to a recent article on NPR.

3. Someone attempting to copy a movie by surreptiously operating an 
audiovisual device, such as me sitting in a seat, running a digital 
camera, would get a very poor quality copy.  I think the real threats 
are having the film lifted from a theater, or an employee copy the film 
as it's played.


Steve

Balint, Jess wrote:

>I would like to post a follow-up to this from somebody I know from Ohio GOP.
>
>Begin quoted message:
>
>
>
>HB 179 actually covers several issues: gas station drive-offs, movie piracy
>and environmental audits.  Regarding the Slashdot concerns, the bill
>basically expands the current shop-lifting laws to include movie piracy.  It
>specifically states "No person, without the written consent of the owner or
>lessee of the facility and of the licensor of the motion picture, shall
>knowingly operate an audiovisual recording function of a device in a
>facility in which a motion picture is being shown."
> 
>Existing law permits a store merchant to hold a suspected shoplifter for a
>"reasonable" period of time while authorities are notified and for purposes
>of investigation.  The new law permits the owner, lessee or employee of a
>facility in which a motion picture is being shown (who has probable cause to
>believe that a person is or has been operating an audiovisual recording
>function of a device in violation of the bill's new motion picture piracy
>prohibition) to detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable
>length of time within the facility or its immediate vicinity.
> 
>The claim that if you "walk into a store that sells video gear and hit
>'Record' on any camcorder, digital camera or PDA; the first click is a
>misdemeanor, the rest are felonies" is technically accurate if what is being
>recorded is for the purposes of piracy.  In other words, if I go to Best
>Buy, put a VHS tape in a machine that's playing a movie, and walk out with
>that tape, I've stolen property and can be detained as a shoplifter.  Same
>goes for shooting video of a movie inside a theater or a retail store.  
> 
>This isn't a dumb law.  It's basic piracy/copyright protection, and it's on
>the books in all 50 states.  This is just an update to cover new techniques
>used by bootleggers.
> 
>
>  
>


From linux at litenverden.org  Mon Dec  1 17:11:26 2003
From: linux at litenverden.org (George H. Yeager)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RedHat Free?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312021346420.3254-100000@newross.rossberry.private>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312021346420.3254-100000@newross.rossberry.private>
Message-ID: <3FCBBC8E.7040709@litenverden.org>

Jim Wildman wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, John Burroway wrote:
> 
> 
>>Just to throw some fuel onto the fire, mix some metaphors, and provide
>>some food for thought: Much like Debian, once you install Mandrake, you
>>can use URPMI to upgrade the whole installation when a new version comes
>>out. I did this last month, upgrading both my Thinkpad and desktop from
>>9.1 to 9.2.
> 
> 
> ditto for Red Hat 7.3, 8.0 and 9.0 to Fedora.  I just did all of them with 
> yum -y upgrade
> I had to deinstall one program from the 8.0 box because it walked into a
> dependency loop during the upgrade.  So 4 commands, 3 upgrades.  Not bad.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE                                jim@rossberry.com
> http://www.rossberry.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
Jim:

I just ran "MandrakeUpgrade" from Gnome on tonight's install and did 
about a zillion bug fixes and security patches.  Very impressive.  I may 
have a workable solution in front of me.

George

From sjs at khadrin.com  Tue Dec  2 22:24:42 2003
From: sjs at khadrin.com (Stephen J. Smith)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] As Seen on Slashdot...
In-Reply-To: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF76@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
References: 
	 <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF76@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
Message-ID: <1070421882.5295.222.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>

On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 09:27, Balint, Jess wrote:
> I would like to post a follow-up to this from somebody I know from Ohio GOP.
> 
> Begin quoted message:
<snip>

I disagree with virtually all of that.  It *is* bad law.

We don't need laws with unspecific language that can apply to normal,
non-criminal activities.  That leads to a situation where every citizen
is in violation of some law at every moment.  The police like this,
because it means that they can find an excuse to arrest any one at any
time.  The legislature should take the time to be precise when they
write law.

We also don't need redundant laws.  Copyright violation is already
illegal.  Why do we need another law?  Are the majority of Ohio's
citizens clamoring for stricter penalties?  Are the merchants?  I
seriously doubt it.  My guess is that MPAA lobbyists are pushing this
*against the will of the people*.  The legislature should tell them no.

The example given seems unlikely.  It might even be fair to call the
example dumb.  I can't imagine a scenario where the best way to copy a
movie is to walk into Best Buy and stick a tape in one of their VCRs.  I
doubt that would even work very often.

Finally, your GOP friend has confused copyright violation with theft. 
That is a dead giveaway that he/she hasn't thought this through very
far.

From linux at litenverden.org  Mon Dec  1 16:24:04 2003
From: linux at litenverden.org (George H. Yeager)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question
In-Reply-To: <20031202175716.GB9873@xenophon.m81.net>
References: <4354.24.123.50.150.1070380553.squirrel@www.jmglov.net>
	<3595.12.29.16.103.1070382652.squirrel@12.29.16.103>
	<20031202175716.GB9873@xenophon.m81.net>
Message-ID: <3FCBB174.2070409@litenverden.org>

John Burroway wrote:

>On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 11:30:52AM -0500, William Hooper wrote:
>  
>
>>It's been a while, but doesn't Mandrake use KDM?
>>    
>>
>
>Mandrake uses a customized version of KDM - MdkKDM - by default, but you
>can easily switch to XDM or GDM in the Mandrake Control Center.
>
>John Burroway
>john@burroway.net
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>
>  
>
John:

Mandrake 9.2 has about every xdm that's been invented. I installed it 
with Gnome 2.4.

George

From linux at litenverden.org  Mon Dec  1 16:21:52 2003
From: linux at litenverden.org (George H. Yeager)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Gnome Question
In-Reply-To: <4354.24.123.50.150.1070380553.squirrel@www.jmglov.net>
References: 
	<20031201214233.GI3203@linuxcolumbus.com><1070223954.2263.8.camel@localhost><1070229293.3545.1.camel@localhost><3FCC0614.4070901@bugs.osu.edu><3FCC09E1.2090100@bugs.osu.edu>
	<59886.198.234.62.130.1070378599.squirrel@webmail.yourwebhosting.com>
	<4354.24.123.50.150.1070380553.squirrel@www.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <3FCBB0F0.60805@litenverden.org>

Josh Glover wrote:

>Quoth linux@litenverden.org
>
>  
>
>>>Found it.  In the /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf file edit the
>>>      
>>>
>>Unfortunately, no such directory/file.  I'll fire a note off the the
>>Mandrake list.
>>    
>>
>
>Try:
>
>rpm -ql gdm | grep gdm.conf
>
>This should tell you where the gdm.conf file lives.
>
>  
>
Josh:

I did another Mandrake install tonight using the Gentoo partitioning 
ideas (modified).  It went fine and I ended up with the correct login 
layout.  Don't know why . . . . yet.

George

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Wed Dec  3 12:30:07 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: Whitebox versus Caos                                              
                                             [COLUG]
Message-ID: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

What are the differences between the RH forks, 
Whitebox Linux http://lwn.net/Articles/61203/ and Caos? 

From garyiddings at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 13:31:48 2003
From: garyiddings at yahoo.com (Gary Iddings)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: Caos alpha-1 released Re: Whitebox versus Caos[COLUG]
In-Reply-To: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031203183148.63683.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com>

Jim P wrote:

> What are the differences between the RH forks, 
> Whitebox Linux http://lwn.net/Articles/61203/ and Caos? 

Dunno, but at least Caos has released some code at the beginning of the month, 
so we can find out.  

http://caosity.org/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
From dshermin at ameritech.net  Wed Dec  3 13:40:09 2003
From: dshermin at ameritech.net (David Sherman)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:48 2005
Subject: Whitebox versus Caos[COLUG]
In-Reply-To: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <b9bssv0q3l2rvaaei7s04vslbjdvptukqs@4ax.com>

As I understand it, Caos is a distribution - small- that installs the
"basic" functions of Linux. Then the installer then downloads that
"latest" files to complete the machine. Scott Sharkey is working on
this project so I hope that I have it right.
White box is a distro that using the files from the Latest RedHat
Enterprise files and create a cost free distribution.


On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:30:07 -0500, you wrote:

>What are the differences between the RH forks, 
>Whitebox Linux http://lwn.net/Articles/61203/ and Caos? 
>
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From mrkurt426 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 13:47:50 2003
From: mrkurt426 at yahoo.com (Kurt Moeller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: Whitebox versus Caos[COLUG]
In-Reply-To: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031203184750.1984.qmail@web14524.mail.yahoo.com>

Jim,

     I knew nothing about White Box Linux until I saw
your message and then went to their site.  I have been
following what's been going on with cAos on their
mailing list since July.  One difference between cAos
and White Box is that cAos is eventually going to have
available the equivalent of RH Enterprise Linux and
also a community based distro a la Fedora.  It seems
that White Box may only have one distro based on RHEL.
 I don't know how many people are helping out with
White Box, but cAos has several developers including
three from COLUG.  cAos has just released its alpha
version, which I plan to install and help test.  I
believe their plan is to try to get the community
based release out by the 1st quarter of 2004. --K.

--- Jim P <jep200305@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> What are the differences between the RH forks, 
> Whitebox Linux http://lwn.net/Articles/61203/ and
> Caos? 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
From dshermin at ameritech.net  Wed Dec  3 14:22:04 2003
From: dshermin at ameritech.net (David Sherman)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: RedHat Enterprise WS
In-Reply-To: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <iqdssvsm2p80dhgscsq2eo2t56k16a7n0j@4ax.com>

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13008

Has any one see this article?
Any truth?

Enterprise Linux WS(Academic Edition) $25.00 per annum

Enterprise Linux AS for $50.00 per annum 

thanks
From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Wed Dec  3 14:37:39 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: RedHat Enterprise WS
In-Reply-To: <iqdssvsm2p80dhgscsq2eo2t56k16a7n0j@4ax.com>
References: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	<iqdssvsm2p80dhgscsq2eo2t56k16a7n0j@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20031203143739.476c7d3a.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

Dave Sherman wrote: 

> Has any one see this article?
> Any truth?
> 
> Enterprise Linux WS(Academic Edition) $25.00 per annum
> 
> Enterprise Linux AS for $50.00 per annum 

So how many students is your company subsidizing the tuition for?  

As much as the colleges are charging for a course, 
it's probably still cheaper than paying full freight.  

Dave, do you get two copies of replies to your COLUG posts?  
Dave, do you get two copies of replies to your COLUG posts?  

From sun at percipia.com  Wed Dec  3 14:47:40 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (Sundaram Ramasamy)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] openssl error:  invalid type in 'policy' configuration
References: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000601c3b9d6$4fca8c40$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>

Hi,


While trying to create openssll certificate I am getting following error
message. I am trying to configure openldap with ssl/tls  certificate.

When I sing the client certification I am getting invalid type in 'policy'
configuration error message.

Here is the steps I followed:


Certificate Authority Configuration
===================================

cnf file:
---------
cat LocalCA.cnf
[ ca ]
default_ca      = local_ca

[ local_ca ]
dir             = /opt/LocalCA
certificate     = $dir/cacert.pem
database        = $dir/index.txt
new_certs_dir   = $dir/certs
private_key     = $dir/private/cakey.pem
serial          = $dir/serial

default_crl_days        = 365
default_days            = 1825
default_md              = md5

policy          = local_ca_policy
x509_extensions = local_ca_extensions

[ local_ca_policy ]
commonName              = ldap.sfg.homeunix.com
stateOrProvinceName     = Ohio
countryName             = US
emailAddress            = admin@sfg.homeunix.com
organizationName        = Sfg Inc
organizationalUnitName  = support

[ local_ca_extensions ]
subjectAltName          = DNS:altname.sfg.homeunix.com
basicConstraints        = CA:false
nsCertType              = server

[ req ]
default_bits    = 2048
default_keyfile = /opt/LocalCA/private/cakey.pem
default_md      = md5

prompt                  = no
distinguished_name      = root_ca_distinguished_name
x509_extensions         = root_ca_extensions

[ root_ca_distinguished_name ]
commonName              = ldap.sfg.homeunix.com
stateOrProvinceName     = Ohio
countryName             = US
emailAddress            = admin@sfg.homeunix.com
organizationName        = Root Certificate Authority

[ root_ca_extensions ]
basicConstraints        = CA:true

Creating CA Certificatte
------------------------
OPENSSL_CONF=/opt/LocalCA/LocalCA.cnf
export OPENSSL_CONF

openssl req -x509 -newkey rsa -out cacert.pem -outform PEM -days 1825

Client and Server Certificate Creation
======================================

servercnf.file
===============
cat LocalServer.cnf
[ req ]
prompt                  = no
distinguished_name      = server_distinguished_name


[ server_distinguished_name ]
commonName              = ldap.sfg.homeunix.com
stateOrProvinceName     = Ohio
countryName             = US
emailAddress            = admin@sfg.homeunix.com
organizationName        = Sfg Inc
organizationalUnitName  = Support

Commands I used to creates and sign the certificate
====================================================

OPENSSL_CONF=/opt/LocalCA/LocalServer.cnf
export OPENSSL_CONF

echo "Generate the Server Certificate and Key "
openssl req -newkey rsa:1024 -keyout tempkey.pem -keyform PEM \
                -out tempreq.pem -outform PEM

echo "Translate Temporary Private Key to an Unencrypted Key "
openssl rsa < tempkey.pem > server_key.pem

chmod 400 server_key.pem

echo "Sign the Server Certificate with Certificate Authoritys Key "
OPENSSL_CONF=/opt/LocalCA/LocalCA.cnf
export OPENSSL_CONF

openssl ca -in tempreq.pem -out server_crt.pem

==============================
I got following error message:

The Subject's Distinguished Name is as follows
commonName            :PRINTABLE:'ldap.sfg.homeunix.com'
stateOrProvinceName   :PRINTABLE:'Ohio'
countryName           :PRINTABLE:'US'
emailAddress          :IA5STRING:'admin@sfg.homeunix.com'
organizationName      :PRINTABLE:'Sfg Inc'
organizationalUnitName:PRINTABLE:'Support'
ldap.sfg.homeunix.com:invalid type in 'policy' configuration





for more output:
===============


[root@ldap LocalCA]# ./cert.sh
Generating a 2048 bit RSA private key
........+++
............+++
writing new private key to '/opt/LocalCA/private/cakey.pem'
Enter PEM pass phrase:
Verifying - Enter PEM pass phrase:
-----
[root@ldap LocalCA]# ./ser.sh
Generate the Server Certificate and Key
Generating a 1024 bit RSA private key
...................................++++++
.................++++++
writing new private key to 'tempkey.pem'
Enter PEM pass phrase:
Verifying - Enter PEM pass phrase:
-----
Translate Temporary Private Key to an Unencrypted Key
Enter pass phrase:
writing RSA key
Sign the Server Certificate with Certificate Authoritys Key
Using configuration from /opt/LocalCA/LocalCA.cnf
Enter pass phrase for /opt/LocalCA/private/cakey.pem:
Check that the request matches the signature
Signature ok
The Subject's Distinguished Name is as follows
commonName            :PRINTABLE:'ldap.sfg.homeunix.com'
stateOrProvinceName   :PRINTABLE:'Ohio'
countryName           :PRINTABLE:'US'
emailAddress          :IA5STRING:'admin@sfg.homeunix.com'
organizationName      :PRINTABLE:'Sfg Inc'
organizationalUnitName:PRINTABLE:'Support'
ldap.sfg.homeunix.com:invalid type in 'policy' configuration




refrenec URL:

http://sapiens.wustl.edu/~sysmain/info/openssl/index.html

Any help to fix this problem.
Thanks
SR

From alden at math.ohio-state.edu  Wed Dec  3 14:47:40 2003
From: alden at math.ohio-state.edu (Dave Alden)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: RedHat Enterprise WS
In-Reply-To: <iqdssvsm2p80dhgscsq2eo2t56k16a7n0j@4ax.com>
References: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	<iqdssvsm2p80dhgscsq2eo2t56k16a7n0j@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20031203194740.GA27052@math.ohio-state.edu>

Hi,

On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:22:04PM -0500, David Sherman wrote:
> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13008
> 
> Has any one see this article?
> Any truth?
> 
> Enterprise Linux WS(Academic Edition) $25.00 per annum
> 
> Enterprise Linux AS for $50.00 per annum 

Yup, I just ordered my $25 WS copy for our dual Opteron box.  I'm in the
process of burning the CD's.  :-)

...dave
From lshurr at columbus.rr.com  Wed Dec  3 17:26:36 2003
From: lshurr at columbus.rr.com (Larry A. Shurr)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] 
	/etc/java/java2.conf (was Unexpected Mozilla error in Suse 9.0
	(gtk))
In-Reply-To: <OF6A08DBE1.EA70AFB2-ON85256DF0.0059FE02-85256DF0.005C8887@checkfree.com>
References: <OF6A08DBE1.EA70AFB2-ON85256DF0.0059FE02-85256DF0.005C8887@checkfree.com>
Message-ID: <3FCE631C.1080408@columbus.rr.com>

WKehr@checkfree.com wrote:
> 
> Larry wrote that he installed the free Susu 9.0.  In discussing the 
> /etc/java/java2.conf file he stated:
> 
>  >   I'll provide mine if you're interested.
> 
> Thanks Larry, I'll take one.

O.K., it's appended to the end of this note.  It's about 2.5K, mostly 
commentary on how to install and set up Java.  I can't tell tell when 
Java .conf files are required, except that OpenOffice 1.1 as supplied 
with SuSE 9.0 wants to see them.  Other programs may take no notice. 
I've noticed, for example, that Konqueror appears to expect the java 
runtime to be available via the PATH.

> In case anyone is interested:
> I ftp'd the install tree [...] to the machine I use most often.  
 > This is several Gig of data.

More than 6 GB, I think.  You might find yourself popular if you bring 
your machine to a COLUG meeting for a quick install or two. ;-)

> Over the years I've gotten in the habit of doing the partitioning before 
> running the install so I used the tomsrtbt CD to partition the disk on 
> the target machine.

If that's your preference, go for it.  FWIW: the install seems to be 
able to sanely and safely partition the disk.

Larry
-- 
Larry A. Shurr (lshurr@columbus.rr.com)

-----snip-------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip-----
# This is a configuration for the JDK 1.4.2 from Sun Microsystems.
# It's based on a sample configuration file embedded in the file
# /etc/java/README which is part of the SuSE base distribution and
# contains the following header:
#
#   "this is configutation [sic] file for JRE from Sun Microsystems,
#   version 1.3.1 it is installed in /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.3.1"
#
# However, the free, network installation version of SuSE Linux 9.0
# *does not* provide either a JRE or JDK and the Sun version of Java
# for Linux does not, as far as I can tell, support the Java .conf
# feature used by SuSE. It is, however, easy to create a .conf file
# for Sun-supplied Java packages:
#
# 1) Install the RPM package for X86 Linux Java JDK version
#    1.4.2<something> from Sun.  This should result in Java being
#    installed in the directory /usr/java/j2sdk1.4.2<something>.
#    Note that these instructions apply specifically to the JDK.
#    If, for some reason, you prefer to use a JRE, the differences
#    are straightforward.  See the file /etc/java/README for an
#    example of a JRE-only .conf file.
#
# 2) Create a symbolic link as follows:
#
#    ln -s <wherever>/j2sdk1.4.2<something> /etc/lib/<JAVA_LINK value>
#
#    where <wherever> is the path to the j2sdk installation directory
#    and <JAVA_LINK value> is the string value of the JAVA_LINK
#    setting defined in the java .conf file.  View the last line of
#    this file where you'll see that JAVA_LINK is set to
#    'SunJava2-1.4.2'.  You may find that the Java installation
#    creates a suitable link for you, but check to make sure.
#
# For example, I installed JDK 1.4.2_20.  The installation directory
# is /usr/java/j2sdk1.4.2_20.  Therefore, the link command was:
#
# ln -s ../java/j2sdk1.4.2_20 /etc/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
#
# Please note that I do not represent SuSE and in no way guarantee
# this method of installing Java on a network-installed SuSE Linux.
# It appears to work fine, but if you need a guarantee, you should
# buy an official SuSE distribution.
#
# View the file /etc/java/README for insight into Java .conf files.

Priority : 30

Vendor   : Sun
Version  : 1.4.2
Devel    : True

JAVA_BINDIR = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2/jre/bin
JAVA_ROOT   = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
JAVA_HOME   = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2/jre
JRE_HOME    = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2/jre
JDK_HOME    = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
SDK_HOME    = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2

JAVA_LINK   = SunJava2-1.4.2
-----snip-------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip-----


From colug at the-testas.net  Wed Dec  3 20:03:44 2003
From: colug at the-testas.net (Joe Testa)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] burning a dvd problems
Message-ID: <3FCE87F0.4000300@the-testas.net>

trying to burn a DVD. the dvd drive says its HP dvd writer 300i

rh9 detects it as a dvd writer 300n.

i'm glad i did it in dummy mode so i didnt waste a dvd, so i've tried 
various drivers and used ignsize to no avail, below is the command i'm 
using:


---------- beginning of text
[root@parents dvd_image]# dvdrecord speed=1 -ignsize -driver mmc_cd_dvd 
-dummy -dao dev=0,1,0 piglets_big_movie.img
dvdrtools v0.1.3
Portions (c) 2002 Red Hat, Inc.
Based on:
Cdrecord 1.11a15 (i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1995-2001 J?rg 
Schilling
scsidev: '0,1,0'
scsibus: 0 target: 1 lun: 0
Linux sg driver version: 3.1.24
Using libscg version 'schily-0.5'
dvdrecord: Warning: using inofficial libscg transport code version 
(schily-RH-scsi-linux-sg.c-1.69-RH-O_EXCL '@(#)scsi-linux-sg.c       
1.69 02/01/18 Copyright
1997 J. Schilling').
Device type    : Removable CD-ROM
Version        : 0
Response Format: 2
Capabilities   :
Vendor_info    : 'HP      '
Identifikation : 'DVD Writer 300n '
Revision       : '1.25'
Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD-ROM.
dvdrecord: WARNING: Trying to use other driver on known device.
Using generic SCSI-3/mmc CD/DVD driver (checks media) (mmc_cd_dvd).
Driver flags   : SWABAUDIO BURNFREE
Supported modes: TAO PACKET SAO SAO/R96R RAW/R96R
dvdrecord: Unspecified command not implemented for this drive.
dvdrecord: Data will not fit on any disk.
dvdrecord: Cannot write CD's >= 100 minutes.


-------------------- end of text

Its like it thinks its an audio cd instead of dvd, i'm so confused, this 
is all R+ mode and i've successfully burned, audio, mp3, VCD on this drive.

I'd appreciate anyone's help in this matter.

thanks, joe


From skippy at skippy.net  Wed Dec  3 20:30:59 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] burning a dvd problems
In-Reply-To: <3FCE87F0.4000300@the-testas.net>
References: <3FCE87F0.4000300@the-testas.net>
Message-ID: <3FCE8E53.9020106@skippy.net>

Joe Testa wrote:
> trying to burn a DVD. the dvd drive says its HP dvd writer 300i
> 
> rh9 detects it as a dvd writer 300n.
> 
> i'm glad i did it in dummy mode so i didnt waste a dvd, so i've tried 
> various drivers and used ignsize to no avail, below is the command i'm 
> using:

Try the dvd+rw-tools:
http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/-RW/

I use the growisofs command to burn my DVDs:
http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/#growisofs

I'm making video DVDs from Digital8 source material, so my workflow is:
* kino to transfer from D8 camera to HDD and to export to MPEG-2 
DVD-format video+audio
* dvdauthor to create the VIDEO_TS structure and VOB data in a temp 
directory
* mkisofs to create an image
(* optionally test image with xine or ogle or mplayer)
* dvd+rw-tools to burn the image to DVD.

The command for the last step is:
    growisofs -Z /dev/dvd=/tmp/dvd.iso

From whooper at freeshell.org  Wed Dec  3 21:04:58 2003
From: whooper at freeshell.org (William Hooper)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: RedHat Enterprise WS 
In-Reply-To: <iqdssvsm2p80dhgscsq2eo2t56k16a7n0j@4ax.com>
References: <20031203123007.022465bb.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
    <iqdssvsm2p80dhgscsq2eo2t56k16a7n0j@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <64815.69.68.37.57.1070503498.squirrel@69.68.37.57>


David Sherman  said:
> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13008
>
> Has any one see this article?
> Any truth?
>
> Enterprise Linux WS(Academic Edition) $25.00 per annum
>
> Enterprise Linux AS for $50.00 per annum

http://www.redhat.com/solutions/industries/education/

-- 
William Hooper
From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 00:25:48 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] MozillaFirebird puzzler
In-Reply-To: <4022.216.136.35.122.1070381087.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
References: <4022.216.136.35.122.1070381087.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <1070515547.10823.5.camel@wbaker>

I experience the same thing with Firebird and Galeon.  Also, Evolution
frequently stops working, and I have to restart it before I can download
my messages.  I'm just guessing here, but I think it could have
something to do with a possible (and as of yet undiscovered) bug in
gtkhtml.  Did you download the Ximian version of any packages?  I think
that when I downloaded the Ximian rpms was when I started having
problems (although I could be remembering wrong).

--Bill

On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 11:04, Scott Merrill wrote:
> At work I'm using MozillaFirebird 0.7 (GTK + Xft) on a Red Hat 9 system
> (yum'ed up from 7.3, originally).
> 
> Occassionally (less frequently now on RH9, more frequently when I was at
> RH8) Mozilla stops loading new webpages.  An open page can be refreshed or
> navigated successfully.  Middle clicking links to open them in a new
> window fails if the link goes to a different location (server) than the
> currently viewed page.  I can press CTRL+T to open a new window and
> manually type a URL, but it will never load, eventually presenting me with
> a pop-up box stating that the destination could not be found.
> 
> The text bar at the bottom of the MozillaFirebird window shows "resolving
> domain.com" for whatever domain I'm trying to access.  I can successfully
> ping the domain from a command line, and Konqueror will load the page just
> fine -- even while MozillaFiebird is still trying.
> 
> The only solution I've found is to close MozillaFirebird and immediately
> open it up again.  Any clues or suggestions for a more lasting fix?
> 
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 00:57:53 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Please help me, all you Coyote geniuses!
Message-ID: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker>

I just downloaded and wrote a Coyote Linux 2.02 floppy, and I'm having
trouble getting it configured.  Here are the options I chose to create
the floppy:

-----
1.44Mb disk
486dx or better
PPP Dialup Connection
IP Address: 192.168.1.4
Netmask: 255.255.255.0
Enable demand dial
Disable idle option
No static IP
Local PPP interface IP address: 192.168.1.4
tty device: ttyS0
ttyS0's port speed: 115200
Modem init string: ATQ0 V1 E1 S0=0 &C1 &D2 +FCLASS=0
           (^--from the Init2 string in /etc/wvdial.conf)
Name of ISP: Earthlink
Phone number to dial: 4414492
Username: bill_chris@earthlink.net
Password: ********
Login during chat: n
Enable DHCP server: n
Domain name: baker
DNS Server 1: 207.217.120.83
DNS Server 2: 207.217.126.81
Syslog server address: <enter>
Module name and params for NIC: 3c509 io=0x300 irq=10
-----

My problem is that when I start Coyote Linux, it gives me the following
messages:

Starting network subsystems...
Configuring local network interface...
SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device
.
.
.
ip: Cannot find device "eth0"
.
.
.
Setting up PPP Internet connection...
-------------------
ERROR: One or more network subsystems failed to start.

Internet Up: YES
Local Up: NO
-------------------

And when I log in and issue the "ifconfig" command, it comes up with
"lo" and "ppp0", but ppp0 is configured with the IP address
192.168.1.4.  I can't ping the CL box, nor can I ping other boxes on my
network from the CL box.  Obviously, I've done something wrong here, but
I can't figure out what.  Can someone give me a clue?

TIA

--Bill

From mplemmons at ameritech.net  Thu Dec  4 07:53:35 2003
From: mplemmons at ameritech.net (mplemmons@ameritech.net)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Please help me, all you Coyote geniuses!
In-Reply-To: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker>
References: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker>
Message-ID: <20031204125335.GA347@marvin>

> Module name and params for NIC: 3c509 io=0x300 irq=10
> -----
> 
> Configuring local network interface...
> SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device
> .
> ip: Cannot find device "eth0"
> .
> And when I log in and issue the "ifconfig" command, it comes up with
> "lo" and "ppp0", but ppp0 is configured with the IP address
> 192.168.1.4.  I can't ping the CL box, nor can I ping other boxes on my
> network from the CL box.  Obviously, I've done something wrong here, but
> I can't figure out what.  Can someone give me a clue?
> 

Note: I have never run Coyote so I may be off my rocker here.....

>From what you have showed with your configuration and that you have stated aboutthe results of when you type ifconfig.  It looks to me like your ethernet card is not actually setup/configured.  You may want to see if the module for your nic is loading.  

-- 
Mike Plemmons
mplemmons@ameritech.net
From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec  4 07:34:30 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] MozillaFirebird puzzler
In-Reply-To: <1070515547.10823.5.camel@wbaker>
References: <4022.216.136.35.122.1070381087.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
	<1070515547.10823.5.camel@wbaker>
Message-ID: <20031204123430.GA22778%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Bill Baker (Thu 2003-12-04 12:25:48AM -0500):

> I experience the same thing with Firebird and Galeon.  Also, Evolution
> frequently stops working, and I have to restart it before I can download
> my messages.  I'm just guessing here, but I think it could have
> something to do with a possible (and as of yet undiscovered) bug in
> gtkhtml.  Did you download the Ximian version of any packages?  I think
> that when I downloaded the Ximian rpms was when I started having
> problems (although I could be remembering wrong).

I have the same problem with Mozilla. I am leaning towards it being an Xft
issue. I downloaded Mozilla 1.6a, with GTK2 support but without Xft, and have
not seen the problem since.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
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From smolnar at jadeinc.com  Thu Dec  4 09:52:01 2003
From: smolnar at jadeinc.com (Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SBC DSL Service
Message-ID: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>

I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in comments regarding SBC 
DSL service in Columbus.

Thanks in advance

-- 
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.                            Life is a fuzzy set
Foundation for Chemistry                            Stochastic and 
multivariant
http://web.jadeinc.com/FoundationChem
From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec  4 10:21:15 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SBC DSL Service
In-Reply-To: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>
References: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <1499.24.123.50.150.1070551275.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.

> I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in comments regarding SBC
> DSL service in Columbus.

I cannot comment on SBC, but I would highly recommend SpeakEasy DSL to anyone.
They have *great* customer service, and you can do everything related to your
account right from a webapp. They have lots of extras, as well.

http://www.speakeasy.net/

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From skippy at skippy.net  Thu Dec  4 10:33:54 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SBC DSL Service
In-Reply-To: <1499.24.123.50.150.1070551275.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com> 
     <1499.24.123.50.150.1070551275.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <3833.216.136.35.122.1070552034.squirrel@www.skippy.net>

Josh Glover said:
> Quoth Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.
>
>> I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in comments regarding
>> SBC
>> DSL service in Columbus.
>
> I cannot comment on SBC, but I would highly recommend SpeakEasy DSL to
> anyone.
> They have *great* customer service, and you can do everything related to
> your
> account right from a webapp. They have lots of extras, as well.
>
> http://www.speakeasy.net/

I second speakeasy.  I've been using them for over a year, and have been
_extremely_ pleased with their no-nonsense arrangements.

SBC uses PPPoE (Point-to-Point Protocol over Ethernet) in most places. 
That works, but it's not nearly as convenient as the plain-old ethernet
connection coming from my speakeasy DSL "modem" (bridge, technically).

I don't think SBC officially supports GNU/Linux.  Speakeasy _does_.
From firewall at stones.wcbe.org  Thu Dec  4 10:55:12 2003
From: firewall at stones.wcbe.org (firewall@stones.wcbe.org)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:49 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux Installation Problems
Message-ID: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>

In Message-id: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker>, 
on Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:57:53 -0500 
Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I just downloaded and wrote a Coyote Linux 2.02 floppy, and I'm having
> trouble getting it configured.  Here are the options I chose to create
> the floppy:
> 
> -----
> 1.44Mb disk
> 486dx or better
> PPP Dialup Connection

Uh oh.  I've done many Coyote Linux configurations, but always for 
where the internet feed was over ethernet, never using PPP.  
Of course, PPP is what you have to use for a phone line.  
I know only one person who set up a PPP connection with Coyote Linux, 
and that is Mackie.  Mackie hasn't been active on this list for a long time.  

> IP Address: 192.168.1.4

This can be legitimate, but this is wierd.  
Most people have their firewalls at .1 or .254, but not something in between.  
What are all the IP addresses of all of your boxes on your LAN?  

> Netmask: 255.255.255.0
> Enable demand dial
> Disable idle option

This is OK for testing, but will probably get you in trouble with your ISP 
if you leave it that way.  Most ISPs require that you not tie up a phone 
line when you're not really using it.  

> No static IP

OK.  That is typical.  

> Local PPP interface IP address: 192.168.1.4

Read what you were prompted with: 

   Set the local PPP interface IP address. Should not be the
   same as 192.168.1.4, but on the same subnet.
   Press enter for [192.168.0.3]:

so enter something like 192.168.1.3 
if no other box on your network is using that address.  

> tty device: ttyS0
> ttyS0's port speed: 115200
> Modem init string: ATQ0 V1 E1 S0=0 &C1 &D2 +FCLASS=0
>            (^--from the Init2 string in /etc/wvdial.conf)
> Name of ISP: Earthlink

I wonder why they ask.  

> Phone number to dial: 4414492
> Username: bill_chris@earthlink.net
> Password: ********
> Login during chat: n
> Enable DHCP server: n

Not using your Coyote Linux box as a DHCP server can be a legitimate thing 
to do, but considering the above strangenesses of 192.168.1.4 and 192.168.1.4, 
your choice to disable DHCP is suspicious.  

> Domain name: baker
> DNS Server 1: 207.217.120.83
> DNS Server 2: 207.217.126.81
> Syslog server address: <enter>
> Module name and params for NIC: 3c509 io=0x300 irq=10

Try it again without the irq=10.  

The 3c509 driver is a strange beast.  Even when you manually configure 
a 3c509's I/O and IRQ, if you specify the irq to the driver, 
it won't work.  This is documented _very_ poorly if at all.  
What you did was perfectly reasonable, but the driver is just 
too strange.  

This probably accounts for the following: 

> My problem is that when I start Coyote Linux, it gives me the following
> messages:
> 
> Starting network subsystems...
> Configuring local network interface...
> SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device
> .
> ip: Cannot find device "eth0"
> .
> Setting up PPP Internet connection...
> -------------------
> ERROR: One or more network subsystems failed to start.
> Local Up: NO

> And when I log in and issue the "ifconfig" command, it comes up with
> "lo" and "ppp0", but ppp0 is configured with the IP address
> 192.168.1.4.  

Yup.  You used 192.168.1.4 twice.  You shouldn't have done that.  

> nI can't ping the CL box, nor can I ping other boxes on my
> network from the CL box.  Obviously, I've done something wrong here, but
> I can't figure out what.  Can someone give me a clue?

First, remove irq=10 from the module stuff.  
Second, don't use 192.168.1.4 twice.  

From firewall at stones.wcbe.org  Thu Dec  4 11:16:24 2003
From: firewall at stones.wcbe.org (firewall@stones.wcbe.org)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux PPP
Message-ID: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>

What do other folks recommend for the domain name far below?

Re Message-id: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker>,
on Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:57:53 -0500
that Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote

I would also try something like below.
Keep in mind that the other machines on the LAN would have to
change to 192.168.0.* addresses and avoid addresses 192.168.0.1
and 192.168.0.3.  That's an issue only if you statically
configure the boxes on your LAN, as you seem to do.
192.168.0.1 would be the gateway address.
It's OK to mix static and DHCP addresses.

Coyote floppy builder script v2.8

Please choose the desired capacity for the created floppy:

1) 1.44Mb (Safest and most reliable but may lack space needed for
           some options)
2) 1.68Mb (Good reliability with extra space) - recommended
3) 1.72Mb (Most space but may not work on all systems or with all
           diskettes)

Enter selection: 1

Please select the processor type in the destination Coyote Linux
system:

1) 386sx, 386dx, 486sx (No math co-processor)
2) 486dx or better (has a math co-processor)

Enter Selection: 2

Please select the type of Internet connection that your system uses.

1) Standard Ethernet Connection
2) PPP over Ethernet Connection
3) PPP Dialup Connection

Enter Selection: 3

Configuring system for PPP dialup.

NOTE: The PPP Dialup support is currently unmaintained and may require further
      configuration and/or tweaking to make it function properly for your ISP.
      If you are interested in helping support the PPP dialup function of Coyote,
      please email jjackson@vortech.net for more information. You need to be
      familiar with Linux and BASH shell scripting to assist in this effort.


By default, Coyote uses the following settings for the local network
interface:

IP Address: 192.168.0.1
Netmask:    255.255.255.0
Broadcast:  192.168.0.255
Network:    192.168.0.0

Would you like to change these settings? [Y/N]: n
OPTIONS CONFIGURATION
Demand Dial:
Initiate the link only on demand, i.e. when data
traffic is present.

Do you want to enable the demand dial option [y/n]: y

Idle option:
Specifies that pppd should disconnect if the link
is idle for n seconds.  The link is idle when no
data packets (i.e. IP packets) are being sent or
received.

Do you want to enable the idle option [y/n]: y

Enter number of seconds for idle disconnect [180]:


Did your ISP assign you a static IP ADDRESS? [y/n]: n
Setting up for dynamic PPP Address


Set the local PPP interface IP address. Should not be the
same as 192.168.0.1, but on the same subnet.
Press enter for [192.168.0.3]:


Enter tty device name for modem (ttyS0, ttyS1, etc)[ttyS0]: ttyS0

Enter ttyS0's port speed (115200, 57600, etc)[115200]:

Enter modem init string (Enter = AT&FS11=55): ATQ0 V1 E1 S0=0 &C1 &D2 +FCLASS=0

Enter name of ISP (no whitespace)[isp]: Earthlink

Enter phone number to dial: 4414492

Enter username: bill_chris@earthlink.net

Enter password: ********


Does your provider need you to authenticate before running PPP?
ex. if your provider supports neither chap nor pap authentication.

If you enable this, your password will be sent in clear text over the
line. Say yes here only if despite having verified everything, you still
cannot connect to your ISP.
Login during chat? [y/n]: n

Do you want to enable the coyote DHCP server [y/n]: y

Enter Domain Name: earthlink.net

   [I really don't know what should be entered for the domain name.
   My guesses are earthlink.net, then baker.earthlink.net.
   Just baker by itself seems odd.  What do other folks recommend?]

Enter DNS Server 1: 207.217.120.83

Enter DNS Server 2 (optional): 207.217.126.81

If you have a syslog server on your LAN you want Coyote to send its syslog
data to, you can specify the address here. If unsure or you do not have a
syslog server, leave this entry blank.

Syslog server address:

You now need to specify the name of the network card module, as well as
any parameters that are required.  For example, the NE2000 ISA driver
requires an IO address and IRQ.  These are specified as follows:
        ne io=0x300 irq=10

NOTE: If the card that you are specifying is a PCI or EISA card, there is
      no need to specify a port and IRQ.  Simple specify the name of the
      module.

Module name and params for your Internet network card: 3c509 io=0x300

Checking module dependencies...
3c509 deps = none

Building package: etc
Building package: local
Building package: modules
Building package: root
Building package: dhcpd
Building package: webadmin

Make sure that you have a floppy in the first floppy drive
in this system and press enter to continue...

Formatting /dev/fd0u1440
Double-sided, 80 tracks, 18 sec/track. Total capacity 1440 kB.
Formatting ... ^[^[:wdone
Verifying ... done
bin/mkdosfs 2.2 (06 Jul 1999)
Installing boot loader...
Copying files...
`floppy/coyote.cfg' -> `mnt/coyote.cfg'
`floppy/dhcpd.tgz' -> `mnt/dhcpd.tgz'
`floppy/etc.tgz' -> `mnt/etc.tgz'
`floppy/linux' -> `mnt/linux'
`floppy/local.tgz' -> `mnt/local.tgz'
`floppy/modules.tgz' -> `mnt/modules.tgz'
`floppy/packages' -> `mnt/packages'
`floppy/root.tgz' -> `mnt/root.tgz'
`floppy/syslinux.cfg' -> `mnt/syslinux.cfg'
`floppy/SYSLINUX.DPY' -> `mnt/SYSLINUX.DPY'
`floppy/webadmin.tgz' -> `mnt/webadmin.tgz'

Would you like to create another copy of this disk [y/n]? n

From mplemmons at ameritech.net  Thu Dec  4 12:51:24 2003
From: mplemmons at ameritech.net (mplemmons@ameritech.net)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SBC DSL Service
In-Reply-To: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>
References: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <20031204175124.GA514@marvin>

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 09:52:01AM -0500, Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D. wrote:
> I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in comments regarding SBC 
> DSL service in Columbus.
> 
I have SBC DSL and I have had no problems.  I use a Linksys router for the connection and then hang my Linux boxen off of it.  However, I will third the recommendation of Speakeasy.  I used them for a small satellite office of a previous job and they did a _great_ job.  If you check www.dslreports.com you will see just about a 100% satisfaction rate.
-- 
Mike Plemmons
mplemmons@ameritech.net
From mrkurt426 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 11:51:46 2003
From: mrkurt426 at yahoo.com (Kurt Moeller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SBC DSL Service
In-Reply-To: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <20031204165146.4145.qmail@web14521.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D." <smolnar@jadeinc.com>
wrote:
> I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in
> comments regarding SBC 
> DSL service in Columbus.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
[snip]

Here's my experience...

I recently subscribed to SBC Yahoo DSL service.  I
have the Standard Plus service which is up to 1.5 mbps
down 128kbps up.  List price is 59.99/mo., my rate is
47.99/mo (I got 20% off for a 12-mo. subscription).  I
believe the low, low prices they are showing on their
site are if you are willing to bundle your local and
long distance services with SBC.  

The service has been fine-- plenty of speed most of
the time and PPPoE is not too bad-- I have the
DHCP-assigned package, which may prove to be the best
way to go-- I just put the username and password in my
router, and that is it.  If you want to run
Internet-connected services, then static IPs, of
course, might make sense, but you must use have a
router that will work with static IPs.

If you should decide to get service from them, one
thing you should NOT do is install the software that
they send you.  It won't work with Linux anyhow,  but
I have heard so many BAD BAD stories about SBC Yahoo
SW that I decided to uninstall it from my Windows
machines.  The install hung on both my workstation and
laptop. I prefer my machines to be under my own
control, thank you, and you really don't need it.  If
you have a router, you shouln't need Enternet to
connect you; if not, then install only Enternet
connection SW and nothing else.  If you're using Linux
without a router,  I would think someone has written a
program that will work with PPPoE.

Regardless of what OS you use, you must register
online.  DSL Reports has a page describing how to do
this:
http://www.dslreports.com/faq/8346

If I had to do it all over again, I might have gone
with another provider like Speakeasy.  We'll see next
fall. --K

> -- 
> Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.                           
> Life is a fuzzy set
> Foundation for Chemistry                           
> Stochastic and 
> multivariant
> http://web.jadeinc.com/FoundationChem
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
From rfunk at funknet.net  Thu Dec  4 12:07:21 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux PPP
In-Reply-To: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>
References: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <200312041207.21331.rfunk@funknet.net>

firewall@stones.wcbe.org wrote:
> What do other folks recommend for the domain name far below?

> Enter Domain Name: earthlink.net
>
>    [I really don't know what should be entered for the domain name.
>    My guesses are earthlink.net, then baker.earthlink.net.
>    Just baker by itself seems odd.  What do other folks recommend?]

I generally use either .local, or (since I own 
funknet.net) .local.funknet.net.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 12:19:26 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] MozillaFirebird puzzler
In-Reply-To: <20031204123430.GA22778%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <4022.216.136.35.122.1070381087.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
	 <1070515547.10823.5.camel@wbaker>
	 <20031204123430.GA22778%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1070558364.13370.6.camel@wbaker>

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 07:34, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Bill Baker (Thu 2003-12-04 12:25:48AM -0500):
> 
> > I experience the same thing with Firebird and Galeon.  Also, Evolution
> > frequently stops working, and I have to restart it before I can download
> > my messages.  I'm just guessing here, but I think it could have
> > something to do with a possible (and as of yet undiscovered) bug in
> > gtkhtml.  Did you download the Ximian version of any packages?  I think
> > that when I downloaded the Ximian rpms was when I started having
> > problems (although I could be remembering wrong).
> 
> I have the same problem with Mozilla. I am leaning towards it being an Xft
> issue. I downloaded Mozilla 1.6a, with GTK2 support but without Xft, and have
> not seen the problem since.

I don't know, it kept happening to me when I installed Mozilla 1.4 with
GTK2 support so I could install Galeon 1.3.x.  So I'm going to replace
all my Ximian packages when I upgrade to Fedora and see if that helps.

--Bill

From debateable at ameritech.net  Thu Dec  4 12:41:58 2003
From: debateable at ameritech.net (Jason Carr)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SBC DSL Service
In-Reply-To: <20031204175124.GA514@marvin>
References: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com> <20031204175124.GA514@marvin>
Message-ID: <3FCF71E6.1000308@ameritech.net>

I also use SBC DSL - I don't like the integration of Yahoo though.

mplemmons@ameritech.net wrote:

>On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 09:52:01AM -0500, Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D. wrote:
>  
>
>>I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in comments regarding SBC 
>>DSL service in Columbus.
>>
>>    
>>
>I have SBC DSL and I have had no problems.  I use a Linksys router for the connection and then hang my Linux boxen off of it.  However, I will third the recommendation of Speakeasy.  I used them for a small satellite office of a previous job and they did a _great_ job.  If you check www.dslreports.com you will see just about a 100% satisfaction rate.
>  
>


From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 13:06:09 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux Installation Problems
In-Reply-To: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
References: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <1070561169.13370.78.camel@wbaker>

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 10:55, firewall@stones.wcbe.org wrote:
> In Message-id: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker>, 
> on Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:57:53 -0500 
> Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > I just downloaded and wrote a Coyote Linux 2.02 floppy, and I'm having
> > trouble getting it configured.  Here are the options I chose to create
> > the floppy:
> > 
> > -----
> > 1.44Mb disk
> > 486dx or better
> > PPP Dialup Connection
> 
> Uh oh.  I've done many Coyote Linux configurations, but always for 
> where the internet feed was over ethernet, never using PPP.  
> Of course, PPP is what you have to use for a phone line.  
> I know only one person who set up a PPP connection with Coyote Linux, 
> and that is Mackie.  Mackie hasn't been active on this list for a long time.  
> 
> > IP Address: 192.168.1.4
> 
> This can be legitimate, but this is wierd.  
> Most people have their firewalls at .1 or .254, but not something in between.  
> What are all the IP addresses of all of your boxes on your LAN?  

Actually, my main PC has .1.  Both .2 and .3 are taken, as well, so I
just used the next one.

> > Netmask: 255.255.255.0
> > Enable demand dial
> > Disable idle option
> 
> This is OK for testing, but will probably get you in trouble with your ISP 
> if you leave it that way.  Most ISPs require that you not tie up a phone 
> line when you're not really using it.  

That's the setup I use on my main PC.  It's OK, because it's an external
modem, and I can just turn it off when I'm not using it.

> > No static IP
> 
> OK.  That is typical.  
> 
> > Local PPP interface IP address: 192.168.1.4
> 
> Read what you were prompted with: 
> 
>    Set the local PPP interface IP address. Should not be the
>    same as 192.168.1.4, but on the same subnet.
>    Press enter for [192.168.0.3]:
> 
> so enter something like 192.168.1.3 
> if no other box on your network is using that address.  

Like I said, .3 is taken already.  When I tried to use .5, that's what
showed up as the IP address, instead of .4.  Is that normal?

> > tty device: ttyS0
> > ttyS0's port speed: 115200
> > Modem init string: ATQ0 V1 E1 S0=0 &C1 &D2 +FCLASS=0
> >            (^--from the Init2 string in /etc/wvdial.conf)
> > Name of ISP: Earthlink
> 
> I wonder why they ask.  

I believe it's so they can name the file in /etc/ppp/peers.

> > Phone number to dial: 4414492
> > Username: bill_chris@earthlink.net
> > Password: ********
> > Login during chat: n
> > Enable DHCP server: n
> 
> Not using your Coyote Linux box as a DHCP server can be a legitimate thing 
> to do, but considering the above strangenesses of 192.168.1.4 and 192.168.1.4, 
> your choice to disable DHCP is suspicious.  

Why is it suspicious?

> > Domain name: baker
> > DNS Server 1: 207.217.120.83
> > DNS Server 2: 207.217.126.81
> > Syslog server address: <enter>
> > Module name and params for NIC: 3c509 io=0x300 irq=10
> 
> Try it again without the irq=10.  
> 
> The 3c509 driver is a strange beast.  Even when you manually configure 
> a 3c509's I/O and IRQ, if you specify the irq to the driver, 
> it won't work.  This is documented _very_ poorly if at all.  
> What you did was perfectly reasonable, but the driver is just 
> too strange.  

OK, I'll try it.

> This probably accounts for the following: 
> 
> > My problem is that when I start Coyote Linux, it gives me the following
> > messages:
> > 
> > Starting network subsystems...
> > Configuring local network interface...
> > SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device
> > .
> > ip: Cannot find device "eth0"
> > .
> > Setting up PPP Internet connection...
> > -------------------
> > ERROR: One or more network subsystems failed to start.
> > Local Up: NO
> 
> > And when I log in and issue the "ifconfig" command, it comes up with
> > "lo" and "ppp0", but ppp0 is configured with the IP address
> > 192.168.1.4.  
> 
> Yup.  You used 192.168.1.4 twice.  You shouldn't have done that.  
> 
> > nI can't ping the CL box, nor can I ping other boxes on my
> > network from the CL box.  Obviously, I've done something wrong here, but
> > I can't figure out what.  Can someone give me a clue?
> 
> First, remove irq=10 from the module stuff.  
> Second, don't use 192.168.1.4 twice.  

OK, here is what I get now:

Configuring local network interface...
SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device
BusyBox...(etc)

ip: Cannot find device "eth0"
BusyBox...(etc)

Setting up PPP Internet connection...
Starting DHCP Server...
Generating DHCP Configuration file...
udhcp server (v0.9.9-pre) started
Setting DHCP max_leases value to 154
SIOCGIFADDR failed, is the interface up and configured?: No such device
-----------
ERROR: One or more network subsystems failed to start.

Internet Up: YES
Local Up: NO
-----------

And when I run ifconfig, it gives me the folloing lines for ppp0:

Link encap:Point-Point Protocol
inet addr:192.168.0.3 P-t-P:192.168.0.3 Mask:255.255.255.255
UP POINTOPOINT RUNNING NOARP MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1

The only things I changed were the IP address (192.168.0.1), the local
PPP interface IP address (192.168.0.3), I enabled the DHCP server, made
the domain name earthlink.net, and I took the "irq=10" out of the module
name and parameters.

Any ideas?  Could it be a hardware problem?

--Bill

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 13:08:32 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux PPP
In-Reply-To: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>
References: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <1070561174.13370.80.camel@wbaker>

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 11:16, firewall@stones.wcbe.org wrote:
> What do other folks recommend for the domain name far below?
> 
> Re Message-id: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker>,
> on Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:57:53 -0500
> that Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote
> 
> I would also try something like below.
> Keep in mind that the other machines on the LAN would have to
> change to 192.168.0.* addresses and avoid addresses 192.168.0.1
> and 192.168.0.3.  That's an issue only if you statically
> configure the boxes on your LAN, as you seem to do.
> 192.168.0.1 would be the gateway address.
> It's OK to mix static and DHCP addresses.

I think if I'm going to change the firewall to 0.1 instead of 1.4, then
I'll probably enable DHCP, since I'll have to change the IP addresses of
my other 3 machines.

<snip>

> Enter Domain Name: earthlink.net
> 
>    [I really don't know what should be entered for the domain name.
>    My guesses are earthlink.net, then baker.earthlink.net.
>    Just baker by itself seems odd.  What do other folks recommend?]

I wondered about that, myself.  I just thought that I could use that
name for the name of the domain for my internal network.

--Bill

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 13:12:56 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Please help me, all you Coyote geniuses!
In-Reply-To: <20031204125335.GA347@marvin>
References: <1070517472.10823.31.camel@wbaker> <20031204125335.GA347@marvin>
Message-ID: <1070561572.13370.84.camel@wbaker>

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 07:53, mplemmons@ameritech.net wrote:
> > Module name and params for NIC: 3c509 io=0x300 irq=10
> > -----
> > 
> > Configuring local network interface...
> > SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device
> > .
> > ip: Cannot find device "eth0"
> > .
> > And when I log in and issue the "ifconfig" command, it comes up with
> > "lo" and "ppp0", but ppp0 is configured with the IP address
> > 192.168.1.4.  I can't ping the CL box, nor can I ping other boxes on my
> > network from the CL box.  Obviously, I've done something wrong here, but
> > I can't figure out what.  Can someone give me a clue?
> > 
> 
> Note: I have never run Coyote so I may be off my rocker here.....
> 
> >From what you have showed with your configuration and that you have stated aboutthe results of when you type ifconfig.  It looks to me like your ethernet card is not actually setup/configured.  You may want to see if the module for your nic is loading.  


Yeah, the module is loading just fine.  I don't know why it won't bring
up the eth0 interface.

--Bill

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 13:31:17 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux Installation Problems
In-Reply-To: <1070561169.13370.78.camel@wbaker>
References: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
	<1070561169.13370.78.camel@wbaker>
Message-ID: <20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:06:09 -0500 Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Any ideas?  Could it be a hardware problem?

Although there are IP address assignments wierdnesses, 
I would first focus on eth0/3c509 issue.  
Maybe hardware _is_ a problem.  
Have you successfully used that ethernet card before?  

Also, using 3Com DOS utility, 
please show _all_ the configuration information for the card.  

From skippy at skippy.net  Thu Dec  4 13:48:55 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux Installation Problems
In-Reply-To: <20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: 
     <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org><1070561169.13370.78.came
     l@wbaker> <20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>

Jim P said:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:06:09 -0500 Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Any ideas?  Could it be a hardware problem?
>
> Although there are IP address assignments wierdnesses,
> I would first focus on eth0/3c509 issue.
> Maybe hardware _is_ a problem.
> Have you successfully used that ethernet card before?
>
> Also, using 3Com DOS utility,
> please show _all_ the configuration information for the card.

The 3c5x9cfg.exe program is what you need:
http://www.emoe.org/ftp/ETHERNET/3C5X9CFG.EXE

I don't know how reliable (read: trustworthy) that source is.  I googled
for 3c5x9cfg.exe when I got aggravated at 3Com's website.  Maybe someone
on the list has a copy they can make available to you.
From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 14:03:33 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux Installation Problems
In-Reply-To: <4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
References: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
	 <1070561169.13370.78.came l@wbaker>
	 <20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	 <4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <1070564611.13370.87.camel@wbaker>

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 13:48, Scott Merrill wrote:
> Jim P said:
> > On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:06:09 -0500 Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Any ideas?  Could it be a hardware problem?
> >
> > Although there are IP address assignments wierdnesses,
> > I would first focus on eth0/3c509 issue.
> > Maybe hardware _is_ a problem.
> > Have you successfully used that ethernet card before?
> >
> > Also, using 3Com DOS utility,
> > please show _all_ the configuration information for the card.
> 
> The 3c5x9cfg.exe program is what you need:
> http://www.emoe.org/ftp/ETHERNET/3C5X9CFG.EXE

Server Error
This server has encountered an internal error which prevents it from
fulfilling your request. The most likely cause is a misconfiguration.
Please ask the administrator to look for messages in the server's error
log.

> I don't know how reliable (read: trustworthy) that source is.  I googled
> for 3c5x9cfg.exe when I got aggravated at 3Com's website.  Maybe someone
> on the list has a copy they can make available to you.

That's OK.  I found the driver files 3c509x1.exe and 3c509x2.exe on the
3Com website.  The configuration program is probably on there.

--Bill

From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec  4 14:16:26 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux PPP
In-Reply-To: <1070561174.13370.80.camel@wbaker>
References: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>
    <1070561174.13370.80.camel@wbaker>
Message-ID: <1456.24.123.50.150.1070565386.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth Bill Baker

> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 11:16, firewall@stones.wcbe.org wrote:
>
>> Enter Domain Name: earthlink.net
>>
>>    [I really don't know what should be entered for the domain name.
>>    My guesses are earthlink.net, then baker.earthlink.net.
>>    Just baker by itself seems odd.  What do other folks recommend?]
>
> I wondered about that, myself.  I just thought that I could use that
> name for the name of the domain for my internal network.

I own the domain name jmglov.net, but have some LAN machines that are not
exposed to the Internet, so I run a jmglov.int zone, as well. I like the .int
convention, as it is not a legal public TLD, and (I think) documents its
purpose as a purely internal domain pretty well.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 14:26:56 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:50 2005
Subject: [COLUG] 3Com configuration Utility
In-Reply-To: <4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
References: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
	<"1070561169.13370.78.came l"@wbaker>
	<20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	<4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <20031204142656.2204fc5a.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:48:55 -0500 (EST) Scott Merrill <skippy@skippy.net> wrote:

> The 3c5x9cfg.exe program is what you need:
> http://www.emoe.org/ftp/ETHERNET/3C5X9CFG.EXE
> 
> I don't know how reliable (read: trustworthy) that source is.  I googled
> for 3c5x9cfg.exe when I got aggravated at 3Com's website.  Maybe someone
> on the list has a copy they can make available to you.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A3com.com+3c5x9cfg.exe

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 14:38:20 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] 3Com configuration Utility
In-Reply-To: <20031204142656.2204fc5a.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
	<"1070561169.13370.78.came l"@wbaker>
	<20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	<4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
	<20031204142656.2204fc5a.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031204143820.6f8d18d4.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:26:56 -0500 Jim P <jep200305@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:48:55 -0500 (EST) Scott Merrill <skippy@skippy.net> wrote:
> 
> > The 3c5x9cfg.exe program is what you need:
> > http://www.emoe.org/ftp/ETHERNET/3C5X9CFG.EXE
> > 
> > I don't know how reliable (read: trustworthy) that source is.  I googled
> > for 3c5x9cfg.exe when I got aggravated at 3Com's website.  Maybe someone
> > on the list has a copy they can make available to you.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A3com.com+3c5x9cfg.exe

http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/3c509.htm
http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/3c509/3c5096.1.htm
http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/3c509/3c509x1.exe
http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/3c509/3c509x2.exe

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 14:44:59 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] 3Com configuration Utility
In-Reply-To: <20031204143820.6f8d18d4.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
	<"1070561169.13370.78.came l"@wbaker>
	<20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	<4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
	<20031204142656.2204fc5a.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	<20031204143820.6f8d18d4.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031204144459.6319a43c.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:38:20 -0500 Jim P <jep200305@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/3c509/3c5096.1.htm

Actually the ftp links are more interesting: 

ftp://ftp.3com.com/pub/nic/3c509/3c509x1.exe
ftp://ftp.3com.com/pub/nic/3c509/3c509x2.exe

because they can be browsed: 

ftp://ftp.3com.com/pub/nic/3c509/

It would be good to make your own personal archive of 
ftp://ftp.3com.com/pub/nic/3c509/ today.  

From mharrold at cas.org  Thu Dec  4 14:54:31 2003
From: mharrold at cas.org (Mike Harrold)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Byte Swapping
Message-ID: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>

Hi,

Can anyone point me to a package that does byte swapping?
i.e., little-endian to big-endian conversion.

Thanks,

/Mike
From firewall at stones.wcbe.org  Thu Dec  4 14:56:39 2003
From: firewall at stones.wcbe.org (firewall@stones.wcbe.org)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Specifying 3c509 for Coyote Linux
Message-ID: <200312041956.hB4JudIH015678@stones.wcbe.org>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:55:12 -0500 firewall@stones.wcbe.org wrote:

> Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Module name and params for NIC: 3c509 io=0x300 irq=10
> 
> Try it again without the irq=10.  
> 
> The 3c509 driver is a strange beast.  Even when you manually configure 
> a 3c509's I/O and IRQ, if you specify the irq to the driver, 
> it won't work.  This is documented _very_ poorly if at all.  
> What you did was perfectly reasonable, but the driver is just 
> too strange.  

I wasn't ruthless enough.  

Don't even specify io=0x300.  Just specify the 3c509.  

My old CL box uses a 3c509 and I just now verified that 
for it I just specified 3c509 without specifying either the io or irq.  

From nliu99 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 14:57:32 2003
From: nliu99 at yahoo.com (Nan Liu)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RE: SBC DSL Service
In-Reply-To: <200312041623.hB4GMi8t004831@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <20031204195733.67153.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com>

> I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in comments
> regarding SBC 
> DSL service in Columbus.

I've used SBC DSL for over a year now. Pretty fast installation, decent
customer service, and overall solid connectivity. I've lost connections
a few times during the storm, but they restored service pretty fast in
each case.

Pros:

Decent download speed (70-80k, 100+ burst)
Low Ping (Better for gaming than RR)
Cheap (26.95/month + 50 Bestbuy Gift card at the moment)
Yahoo! Premium (You can access your yahoo mail via regular mail
software, and a bigger account)

Cons:
Lousy upload speed (less than 10k)
PPPoe (I like RR where you plug and go, none of this user/password
stuff)
Room mates (if you share the internet connection with someone else,
when they download stuff, your ping goes sky high, and you get packet
drops.)

That sums it up pretty well.

Nan 

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 15:13:07 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] gnippawS etyB (was Byte Swapping)
In-Reply-To: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
References: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
Message-ID: <20031204151307.46042585.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:54:31 -0500 (EST) Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Can anyone point me to a package that does byte swapping?
> i.e., little-endian to big-endian conversion.

#define swapendian2byte(x) ((((x)&0xFF)<<8)|(((x)>>8)&0xFF))
#define swapendian4byte(x) ( \
     (( (x)     &0xFF)<<24) \
   | ((((x)>> 8)&0xFF)<<16) \
   | ((((x)>>16)&0xFF)<< 8) \
   | ((((x)>>24)&0xFF)    ) \
)

Yuck!  

From kcartwri at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 15:36:15 2003
From: kcartwri at columbus.rr.com (Kirby W. Cartwright)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Byte Swapping
In-Reply-To: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
References: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
Message-ID: <1070570175.4818.38.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Mike,

I'm assuming you are doing some programming for networking...

As I remember each compiler / uP should have a macro defined to
order bytes correctly to send over the TCP/IP/Ethernet network.  It's
something like "htons()."  If the machine has correct byte ordering,
big-endian
first as I remember, than the macro preprocesses to not much, else it
processes
to code that reorders bytes.

Quoting the Internet:

The htonl() function converts the long integer hostlong from host byte
order to network byte order. 

The htons() function converts the short integer hostshort from host byte
order to network byte order. 

The ntohl() function converts the long integer netlong from network byte
order to host byte order. 

The ntohs() function converts the short integer netshort from network
byte order to host byte order. 

On the i80x86 the host byte order is Least Significant Byte first,
whereas the network byte order, as used on the Internet, is Most
Significant Byte first. 


"Obey network order. If you're communicating to a remote process, use
nto*() and *ton() to ensure sure all network communications use network
byte order."

Hope this helps,

Kirby W. Cartwright

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 14:54, Mike Harrold wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Can anyone point me to a package that does byte swapping?
> i.e., little-endian to big-endian conversion.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> /Mike
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
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From rfunk at funknet.net  Thu Dec  4 15:54:12 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] 3Com configuration Utility
In-Reply-To: <4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
References: <200312041555.hB4FtB9T002398@stones.wcbe.org>
	<20031204133117.3dc30e5f.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
	<4809.216.136.35.122.1070563735.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <200312041554.12539.rfunk@funknet.net>

Scott Merrill wrote:
> The 3c5x9cfg.exe program is what you need:
> http://www.emoe.org/ftp/ETHERNET/3C5X9CFG.EXE

.exe?  This is Linux land!  :-)

http://www.scyld.com/diag/3c5x9setup.html
ftp://ftp.scyld.com/pub/diag/3c5x9setup.c

Or if you have a Debian installation handy:
  apt-get install nictools-nopci
and use /usr/sbin/3c5x9setup

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From rfunk at funknet.net  Thu Dec  4 15:58:22 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux PPP
In-Reply-To: <1456.24.123.50.150.1070565386.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>
	<1070561174.13370.80.camel@wbaker>
	<1456.24.123.50.150.1070565386.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <200312041558.22429.rfunk@funknet.net>

Josh Glover wrote:
> I own the domain name jmglov.net, but have some LAN machines that are
> not exposed to the Internet, so I run a jmglov.int zone, as well. I like
> the .int convention, as it is not a legal public TLD, and (I think)
> documents its purpose as a purely internal domain pretty well.

Actually .int is a legal public TLD, intended for organizations 
"established by international treaties between or among national 
governments," according to the first link that comes up in a google search 
for "domain int".  It's one of the originals, not part of the expansion 
that brought us the ever-useful .museum.

Hint: two- and three-letter TLDs are likely to be taken.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From rfunk at funknet.net  Thu Dec  4 15:59:54 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Byte Swapping
In-Reply-To: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
References: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
Message-ID: <200312041559.54701.rfunk@funknet.net>

Mike Harrold wrote:
> Can anyone point me to a package that does byte swapping?
> i.e., little-endian to big-endian conversion.

dd swab

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From gamerine at iwaynet.net  Thu Dec  4 16:09:12 2003
From: gamerine at iwaynet.net (Glenn Amerine)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Debian CDs
Message-ID: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>

Hi,

I just recently moved and my Cheapbytes Debian 3.0 discs seem to be
MIA. I'm currently bandwith impaired. Anyone have a set I could burn
or trade blank discs for? Any help appreciated!

Thanks!
Glenn
From mharrold at cas.org  Thu Dec  4 16:12:33 2003
From: mharrold at cas.org (Mike Harrold)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Byte Swapping
In-Reply-To: <200312041559.54701.rfunk@funknet.net> from "Rob Funk" at Dec 04,
	2003 03:59:54 PM
Message-ID: <200312042112.hB4LCXM11194@srv45.cas.org>

> 
> Mike Harrold wrote:
> > Can anyone point me to a package that does byte swapping?
> > i.e., little-endian to big-endian conversion.
> 
> dd swab

This only works on pairs, according to the man page...

/Mike

From blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu  Thu Dec  4 16:23:19 2003
From: blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu (Wade Pinkston)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Debian CDs
In-Reply-To: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
References: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
Message-ID: <3FCFA5C7.1080006@bugs.osu.edu>

I have all 8 30 rc1 iso's on an ftp or I can burn them for you but you 
have to come get them.

Glenn Amerine wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I just recently moved and my Cheapbytes Debian 3.0 discs seem to be
>MIA. I'm currently bandwith impaired. Anyone have a set I could burn
>or trade blank discs for? Any help appreciated!
>
>Thanks!
>Glenn
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>  
>

-- 
Wade Pinkston 
The Ohio State University 
Extension Entomology
1991 Kenny Rd 
Columbus OH 43210 
phone: (614) 292-5274 

Ipsa scientia potestas est 

Windows,a
32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch to an
8 bit operating system internally coded for a
4 bit processor written by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition


From sun at percipia.com  Thu Dec  4 16:32:46 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (Sundaram Ramasamy)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] FAT File system write problem
References: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
	<200312041559.54701.rfunk@funknet.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c3baae$2890cd00$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>

Hi,

Redhat 9.0 Linux I am mounting FAT Fileystem like this.

/dev/hdd1               /data                   vfat     defaults       0 0

As a root user I was able to create/delete a file. With other user I was not
able to create a file it giving Permission denied error message.


$ touch a
touch: creating `a': Permission denied


chmod mode command giveing following error message.

# chmod 777 a
chmod: changing permissions of `a' (requested: 0777, actual: 0755):
Operation not permitted


How will i give permisson to other login to write into this file system.

Thanks

From smolnar at jadeinc.com  Thu Dec  4 16:19:01 2003
From: smolnar at jadeinc.com (Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Thanks for the Response
Message-ID: <oprzodhzrp2jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>

My thanks to everyone who responded to my request for information about 
SBC DSL service earlier
today.

I've decided to go with the service.  As it turns out, their relay station 
is only 650 from my
home so I should get reasonable survice.  It will certainly be better that 
a modem.

Again, thanks to everyone.


-- 
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.                            Life is a fuzzy set
Foundation for Chemistry                            Stochastic and 
multivariant
http://web.jadeinc.com/FoundationChem
From blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu  Thu Dec  4 16:37:36 2003
From: blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu (Wade Pinkston)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] FAT File system write problem
In-Reply-To: <002c01c3baae$2890cd00$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
References: <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org>
	<200312041559.54701.rfunk@funknet.net>
	<002c01c3baae$2890cd00$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
Message-ID: <3FCFA920.6030907@bugs.osu.edu>

both these are fat32 partions.  with this method however only user 500 
will be able to use the partions just like root in your current situation.

/dev/hda1               /c                      vfat    
uid=500,noauto,owner  0 0
/dev/hdb1               /mnt/d                  vfat    
uid=500,noauto,owner   0 0




Sundaram Ramasamy wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Redhat 9.0 Linux I am mounting FAT Fileystem like this.
>
>/dev/hdd1               /data                   vfat     defaults       0 0
>
>As a root user I was able to create/delete a file. With other user I was not
>able to create a file it giving Permission denied error message.
>
>
>$ touch a
>touch: creating `a': Permission denied
>
>
>chmod mode command giveing following error message.
>
># chmod 777 a
>chmod: changing permissions of `a' (requested: 0777, actual: 0755):
>Operation not permitted
>
>
>How will i give permisson to other login to write into this file system.
>
>Thanks
>
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>  
>

-- 
Wade Pinkston 
The Ohio State University 
Extension Entomology
1991 Kenny Rd 
Columbus OH 43210 
phone: (614) 292-5274 

Ipsa scientia potestas est 

Windows,a
32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch to an
8 bit operating system internally coded for a
4 bit processor written by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition


From smolnar at jadeinc.com  Thu Dec  4 16:21:43 2003
From: smolnar at jadeinc.com (Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Thanks for the Response
Message-ID: <oprzodmhms2jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>

My thanks to everyone who responded to my request for information about 
SBC DSL service earlier
today.

I've decided to go with the service.  As it turns out, their relay station 
is only 650 from my
home so I should get reasonable survice.  It will certainly be better that 
a modem.

Again, thanks to everyone.


-- 
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.                            Life is a fuzzy set
Foundation for Chemistry                            Stochastic and 
multivariant
http://web.jadeinc.com/FoundationChem
From davidbro at infinet.com  Thu Dec  4 16:40:52 2003
From: davidbro at infinet.com (David Brown)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: SBC-DSL
Message-ID: <200312042140.hB4LeqE0091613@mail5.mx.voyager.net>

hey there, have helped alot(>30) of friends set-up/troubleshoot their 
SBC dsl, so here is my .02 Euros..Your Milage May Vary..
SBC has affordable service and seems to be one of the few players that 
are in a price war w/Road Runner. If/When you get it up and running its 
great...tech support is almost non-existant.I've been online several 
hours w/them when one tech would tell me one thing and the tech that (s)
he transfers me to/from has told me another. Right now the price is >$30 
for 768-1.5 d/l(caveat-we were told that we'd get around 768 but no more 
than 1.5--so no clear answer as to what speed is promised/expected) and 
that's the best price in this area AFAIK...if your order gets placed 
(another caveat-i've had several friends place orders and then wait 6-8 
weeks before hearing anything----then i've had others that have placed 
their orders and been online in 3 days). 
Tell them you run linux and they will treat you as if you've just told 
them that your a space alien. One install tech i talked to went as far 
as to tell me that their online signup was made w/flash to discourage 
linux users. Another time i had a tech outright call me a liar when i 
told him that we had a dedicated dropped-line connection--when SBC first 
came to this area, they would drop a dedicated line...now they try to 
get you to use the 'shared phoneline' PPOE. All of HIS manuals/scripts 
dealt w/the 'shared phoneline' option and he was positive that we had 
called the wrong ISP for help.
After 1 year the price WILL go up. However if you call and negotiate 
w/them you can either get upgraded service for the new price OR you can 
have your service disconnected at day 365 of the old contract and then 
re-sign as a new customer on day 366 (email addys will be lost that way)

i think their current special is >$30, but if you sign up online (flash 
required) you save another $3-5 per month.

After reading this it does sound a little jaded--sorry--i'm a bit biased 
as they put a repeater in MY neighborhood to improve our voice quality 
and now i cant get ANY PPOE/ADSL service--as it adds every house in a 2 
mile radius to my loop back to the CO--however i still get spam/junk 
mail from then wanting me to resign when they casued my service to get 
interrupted in the first place.....ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!

later
dave

From skippy at skippy.net  Thu Dec  4 17:04:51 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:51 2005
Subject: [COLUG] FAT File system write problem
In-Reply-To: <002c01c3baae$2890cd00$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
References: 
     <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org><200312041559.54701.rfunk@fun
     knet.net> <002c01c3baae$2890cd00$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
Message-ID: <1833.216.136.35.122.1070575491.squirrel@www.skippy.net>

Sundaram Ramasamy said:
> Hi,
>
> Redhat 9.0 Linux I am mounting FAT Fileystem like this.
>
> /dev/hdd1               /data                   vfat     defaults       0
> 0
>
> As a root user I was able to create/delete a file. With other user I was
> not
> able to create a file it giving Permission denied error message.

Did you mount the partition as root?

What are the permissions on the mount point (/data)?
From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec  4 17:18:57 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux PPP
In-Reply-To: <200312041558.22429.rfunk@funknet.net>
References: 
	<200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org><1070561174.13370.80.camel@wbaker><1456.24.123.50.150.1070565386.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	<200312041558.22429.rfunk@funknet.net>
Message-ID: <2250.24.123.50.150.1070576337.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth Rob Funk

> Josh Glover wrote:
>
>> I own the domain name jmglov.net, but have some LAN machines that are
>> not exposed to the Internet, so I run a jmglov.int zone, as well. I like
>> the .int convention, as it is not a legal public TLD, and (I think)
>> documents its purpose as a purely internal domain pretty well.
>
> Actually .int is a legal public TLD, intended for organizations
> "established by international treaties between or among national
> governments," according to the first link that comes up in a google search
> for "domain int".  It's one of the originals, not part of the expansion
> that brought us the ever-useful .museum.
>
> Hint: two- and three-letter TLDs are likely to be taken.

Interesting. I have never seen it in use on the public Internet. Anyway, not
a problem for a DNS server running only on 192.168.0/16. :)

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From capncrunch at woh.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 18:45:21 2003
From: capncrunch at woh.rr.com (Greg)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Coyote Linux PPP
References: <200312041616.hB4GGOPx004748@stones.wcbe.org>
	<1070561174.13370.80.camel@wbaker>
	<1456.24.123.50.150.1070565386.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	<200312041558.22429.rfunk@funknet.net>
	<2250.24.123.50.150.1070576337.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c3bac0$b1d920f0$6501a8c0@noneht65di9zgs>

----- Original Message ----- 
> Josh Glover wrote:
> Interesting. I have never seen it in use on the public Internet. Anyway,
not
> a problem for a DNS server running only on 192.168.0/16. :)

try www.nato.int

My first attempt at a DNS server was terrible.mes    Simply because I was
sure while learning it was going to be just that. :-)

Greg S



---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 12/2/2003
Tested on: 12/4/2003 6:45:28 PM
avast! is copyright (c) 2000-2003 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com



From bnmille at myrealbox.com  Thu Dec  4 18:54:39 2003
From: bnmille at myrealbox.com (Brian Miller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re:  nmblookup and iptables
Message-ID: <1070582079.73ae2560bnmille@myrealbox.com>

Jim,
You need to allow packets FROM ports 135 and 137.  Your firewall configuration allows packets TO those ports.  If you could limit the IP range from which you receive the packets, that would help protect you somewhat from malicious activities:

iptables -A INPUT -s Class_C_network/24 -p udp -m udp --sport 135-137 -j ACCEPT

Those return packets from nmblookup come from the MS ports, not to them.

Hope this helps.

Brian



From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 19:09:17 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
Message-ID: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>

Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies led me on a nice little adventure this evening. I had noticed several blatan attempts to "hack" my webserver. Think: "204.210.83.150 - - [04/Dec/2003:18:25:11 -0500] "GET /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 6638" Obviously this attempt was laughable, uhh well all considering I have never seen the /winnt/system32 directory on my slack box lol. So I just did a quick whois on the ip wholeheartedly expecting it to be a proxy, to my surprise it was a road runner address. A quick call to service and support got me the good 'ole security@rr.com. So I passed along the logs and am waiting for the response.  What do you think they will have to say?

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 19:15:36 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
Message-ID: <5f6f4606f1.606f15f6f4@columbus.rr.com>



----- Original Message -----
From: manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2003 7:09 pm
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.

> Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies led me on a nice 
> little adventure this evening. I had noticed several blatan 
> attempts to "hack" my webserver. Think: "204.210.83.150 - - 
> [04/Dec/2003:18:25:11 -0500] "GET 
> /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 
> 6638" Obviously this attempt was laughable, uhh well all 
> considering I have never seen the /winnt/system32 directory on my 
> slack box lol. So I just did a quick whois on the ip wholeheartedly 
> expecting it to be a proxy, to my surprise it was a road runner 
> address. A quick call to service and support got me the good 'ole 
> security@rr.com. So I passed along the logs and am waiting for the 
> response.  What do you think they will have to say?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

Just a quick thought, RR says they portscan for webservers that may be used for dos attacks however the address was not securityscan.sec.rr.com just wanted to save someone from typing that.

From whooper at freeshell.org  Thu Dec  4 19:35:54 2003
From: whooper at freeshell.org (William Hooper)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues. 
In-Reply-To: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <65016.69.68.37.57.1070584554.squirrel@69.68.37.57>


manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com  said:
> Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies led me on a nice little
> adventure this evening. I had noticed several blatan attempts to "hack" my
> webserver. Think: "204.210.83.150 - - [04/Dec/2003:18:25:11 -0500] "GET
> /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 6638"
> Obviously this...

Is a Windows machine infected with one of the Windows worms.  One of the
Nimda variants I believe.

-- 
William Hooper
From garyiddings at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 19:42:33 2003
From: garyiddings at yahoo.com (Gary Iddings)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <5f6f4606f1.606f15f6f4@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031205004233.28739.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:09:17 -0500 manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:

> Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies 
> led me on a nice little adventure this evening. 

> ... So I just did a quick whois on the ip wholeheartedly expecting 
> it to be a proxy, to my surprise it was a road runner address.
> A quick call to service and support got me the good 'ole security@rr.com. 
> So I passed along the logs and am waiting for the response.  

> What do you think they will have to say?

Why don't you have a /winnt/system32 directory?  
Linux?  You must use Windows.  We only support Windows.  
Go away and don't bug us.  



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 20:16:40 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
Message-ID: <5f6865fb44.5fb445f686@columbus.rr.com>

manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com  said:
> Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies led me on a nice little
> adventure this evening. I had noticed several blatan attempts to "hack" my
> webserver. Think: "204.210.83.150 - - [04/Dec/2003:18:25:11 -0500] "GET
> /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 6638"
> Obviously this...

Is a Windows machine infected with one of the Windows worms.  One of the
Nimda variants I believe.

--
William Hooper

Ya probably, either way the best thing to do is to notify security@rr.com. They will analyze it and if they deem it a worm on the users computer they will e-mail that user and help them remove it. Otherwise, if it was a direct attack and not an isolated incident then apporopriate action will be taken. In any case notifying the appropriate people is the best course of action. In any case I am no expert on worms or webserver security nor do I want to be. FYI there are tons of so called "Remote access tools" that employ the same method. Paranoia has worked for me in the past so that is what I am going to stick with.

From john at burroway.net  Thu Dec  4 20:44:34 2003
From: john at burroway.net (John Burroway)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: SBC-DSL
In-Reply-To: <200312042140.hB4LeqE0091613@mail5.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200312042140.hB4LeqE0091613@mail5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3FCFE302.8000701@burroway.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Brown wrote:

|Tell them you run linux and they will treat you as if you've just told
|them that your a space alien. One install tech i talked to went as far
|as to tell me that their online signup was made w/flash to discourage
|linux users.


I hope your response was "So? Macromedia makes a Flash plugin for Linux."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQE/z+MBlPT8Jbg2NqYRAvLzAKCyAyTSvqtjhUY3D8HRfAspK7sdDwCaAqdu
oqu055JnQNExYtqhXrUG6gA=
=zOnJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From whooper at freeshell.org  Thu Dec  4 21:35:44 2003
From: whooper at freeshell.org (William Hooper)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues. 
In-Reply-To: <5f6865fb44.5fb445f686@columbus.rr.com>
References: <5f6865fb44.5fb445f686@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <64678.69.68.37.57.1070591744.squirrel@69.68.37.57>


manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com  said:
> Ya probably, either way the best thing to do is to notify security@rr.com.
> They will analyze it and if they deem it a worm on the users computer they
> will e-mail that user and help them remove it. Otherwise, if it was a
> direct attack and not an isolated incident then apporopriate action will
> be taken. In any case notifying the appropriate people is the best course
> of action. In any case I am no expert on worms or webserver security nor
> do I want to be. FYI there are tons of so called "Remote access tools"
> that employ the same method. Paranoia has worked for me in the past so
> that is what I am going to stick with.

I have no personal experience with security@rr.com.  I really doubt that
they are interested it helping people clean their machines.  If they were
they could easily set up an IDS to find these machines a long time ago. 
Most likely they will just look at it and say "Infected Windows Machine,
move on".

-- 
William Hooper
From pat at linuxcolumbus.com  Thu Dec  4 21:43:53 2003
From: pat at linuxcolumbus.com (pat@linuxcolumbus.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] I met the devil today.
Message-ID: <20031205024353.GA19923@linuxcolumbus.com>

Attended a Microsoft sponsered MSDN event today and it might has well have
been led by the devil him-self.  Firstly, it was about ASP.net design and
security of line-of-business apps.  Nothing I haven't done before, but I
wanted to hear the Microsoft side of it.  

The presenter was a "Microsoft something Champion", one of only 15 in the
world, or so I am told.  Security, there still calling it palladium.  Why
can't I remember that /. comment about the new name when I need it.
Linux, we aren't doing this so you won't be able to run any other
operating system.  Cough...BS...Cough.  Dot NET, it was designed to be portable across any
operating system.  I didn't bother asking which other operating systems it
runs under, I already knew: Win98,WinNT,W2K,WXP,W2K3.  Oh, here is how you
design a secure dot NET web app.  See this here, this is the "ticket", we
encrypt the ticket and store it in the cookie.  Very secure.  We also use
something called SSL, secure socket layer.  Someone asks if "that is 128
bit?"  Yes, sir.  They dogged Netscape 4 cause it doesn't work with PNGs.
I guess they forgot that IE isn't so great with certain PNG's either.  

Other than that, they seem to be using a lot of ideas from Open Source (QT
came to mind) in there dot NET super duper IDE.  I got a free "man" pack
with a bunch of propoganda.  Anybody know how to remove the ironed on label
from this thing so I won't be embarassed to use it?  At least the t-shirt
fit and I needed a new one to wear when working on my car.

Long live Linux and Open Source.


Pat
From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 22:01:02 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] I met the devil today.
Message-ID: <6606b6445a.6445a6606b@columbus.rr.com>

In all fairness .NET is based off of an RFC (or something along those lines) that microsoft submitted. .NET is becoming available on linux through mono http://www.go-mono.com. I personally don't see the incredible benefit to .NET but some people love it. Note: I am sure that microsoft has made it altogether impossible to have true platform independence and has built .NET so it works best with Windows, and that is why i will never use mono i am not going to be forced to play by microsoft's rules when i am all the way over here in linux use the wine libs for cross platform compiling (from windows to linux at least.)

From Baer at BaerSolutions.com  Thu Dec  4 22:02:58 2003
From: Baer at BaerSolutions.com (BaerSolutions.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
References: <5f6865fb44.5fb445f686@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <016401c3badc$49c42a70$6801a8c0@zipy>

This dose look like a windows virus attacking your system....
I use to manually report the attacks to ISP's.. but it just was to much
work.
I ran across a script, wormwarn  http://www.jeroen.se/warner.php   that does
this for me.
I tested the latest release 2.2, .. and it seems to work great.
I first used version 2.0, and almost dod myself with all the mail it was
sending out.. and the automatic replies I was getting from the ISP's..

It currently monitors for:
CodeRed I
CodeRed II
Linux.Slapper.Worm
Nimda
Sadmin
Scalper.worm

If will first try to send an e-mail to the IP, and then if not successful
will notify the ISP.
I will automatically attach the log files, and time zone your log files are
in(this was requested by most ISP's)

----- Original Message -----
From: <manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com>
To: <colug@colug.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [COLUG] RR security issues.


> manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com  said:
> > Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies led me on a nice little
> > adventure this evening. I had noticed several blatan attempts to "hack"
my
> > webserver. Think: "204.210.83.150 - - [04/Dec/2003:18:25:11 -0500] "GET
> > /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 6638"
> > Obviously this...
>
> Is a Windows machine infected with one of the Windows worms.  One of the
> Nimda variants I believe.
>
> --
> William Hooper
>
> Ya probably, either way the best thing to do is to notify security@rr.com.
They will analyze it and if they deem it a worm on the users computer they
will e-mail that user and help them remove it. Otherwise, if it was a direct
attack and not an isolated incident then apporopriate action will be taken.
In any case notifying the appropriate people is the best course of action.
In any case I am no expert on worms or webserver security nor do I want to
be. FYI there are tons of so called "Remote access tools" that employ the
same method. Paranoia has worked for me in the past so that is what I am
going to stick with.
>
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>


From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec  4 22:18:49 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
Message-ID: <64dc96749d.6749d64dc9@columbus.rr.com>

Alas! A productive response I will check out that script asap. Thanks a ton!

----- Original Message -----
From: "BaerSolutions.com" <Baer@BaerSolutions.com>
Date: Thursday, December 4, 2003 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [COLUG] RR security issues.

> This dose look like a windows virus attacking your system....
> I use to manually report the attacks to ISP's.. but it just was to 
> muchwork.
> I ran across a script, wormwarn  http://www.jeroen.se/warner.php   
> that does
> this for me.
> I tested the latest release 2.2, .. and it seems to work great.
> I first used version 2.0, and almost dod myself with all the mail 
> it was
> sending out.. and the automatic replies I was getting from the ISP's..
> 
> It currently monitors for:
> CodeRed I
> CodeRed II
> Linux.Slapper.Worm
> Nimda
> Sadmin
> Scalper.worm
> 
> If will first try to send an e-mail to the IP, and then if not 
> successfulwill notify the ISP.
> I will automatically attach the log files, and time zone your log 
> files are
> in(this was requested by most ISP's)
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com>
> To: <colug@colug.net>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] RR security issues.
> 
> 
> > manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com  said:
> > > Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies led me on a nice 
> little> > adventure this evening. I had noticed several blatan 
> attempts to "hack"
> my
> > > webserver. Think: "204.210.83.150 - - [04/Dec/2003:18:25:11 -
> 0500] "GET
> > > /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 
> 6638"> > Obviously this...
> >
> > Is a Windows machine infected with one of the Windows worms.  One 
> of the
> > Nimda variants I believe.
> >
> > --
> > William Hooper
> >
> > Ya probably, either way the best thing to do is to notify 
> security@rr.com.They will analyze it and if they deem it a worm on 
> the users computer they
> will e-mail that user and help them remove it. Otherwise, if it was 
> a direct
> attack and not an isolated incident then apporopriate action will 
> be taken.
> In any case notifying the appropriate people is the best course of 
> action.In any case I am no expert on worms or webserver security 
> nor do I want to
> be. FYI there are tons of so called "Remote access tools" that 
> employ the
> same method. Paranoia has worked for me in the past so that is what 
> I am
> going to stick with.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  5 00:22:47 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Specifying 3c509 for Coyote Linux
In-Reply-To: <200312041956.hB4JudIH015678@stones.wcbe.org>
References: <200312041956.hB4JudIH015678@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <1070601766.13370.89.camel@wbaker>

That did it.  Thanks.  Now to learn about setting up the rest of it.

Thanks again.

--Bill

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 14:56, firewall@stones.wcbe.org wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:55:12 -0500 firewall@stones.wcbe.org wrote:
> 
> > Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Module name and params for NIC: 3c509 io=0x300 irq=10
> > 
> > Try it again without the irq=10.  
> > 
> > The 3c509 driver is a strange beast.  Even when you manually configure 
> > a 3c509's I/O and IRQ, if you specify the irq to the driver, 
> > it won't work.  This is documented _very_ poorly if at all.  
> > What you did was perfectly reasonable, but the driver is just 
> > too strange.  
> 
> I wasn't ruthless enough.  
> 
> Don't even specify io=0x300.  Just specify the 3c509.  
> 
> My old CL box uses a 3c509 and I just now verified that 
> for it I just specified 3c509 without specifying either the io or irq.  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  5 00:28:14 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Debian CDs
In-Reply-To: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
References: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
Message-ID: <1070602091.13370.93.camel@wbaker>

You mean you don't want to download from dialup?  Wuss! ;-)  I just got
through downloading all 3 Fedora CDs over dialup, and I had to download
CD #2 twice!  (md5sum check failed)

--Bill

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 16:09, Glenn Amerine wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just recently moved and my Cheapbytes Debian 3.0 discs seem to be
> MIA. I'm currently bandwith impaired. Anyone have a set I could burn
> or trade blank discs for? Any help appreciated!
> 
> Thanks!
> Glenn


From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 00:38:51 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:52 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Debian CDs
In-Reply-To: <1070602091.13370.93.camel@wbaker>
References: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
	<1070602091.13370.93.camel@wbaker>
Message-ID: <20031205003851.5c6bf803.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I just got through downloading all 3 Fedora CDs over dialup, 
> and I had to download CD #2 twice!  (md5sum check failed)

Ahh!, so that's why you said: 

> Disable idle option

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  5 00:46:55 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Debian CDs
In-Reply-To: <20031205003851.5c6bf803.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
	 <1070602091.13370.93.camel@wbaker>
	 <20031205003851.5c6bf803.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1070603211.13370.97.camel@wbaker>

LOL!  Yeah.  Those CDs take a LONG time to download over dialup!

--Bill

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 00:38, Jim P wrote:
> Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > I just got through downloading all 3 Fedora CDs over dialup, 
> > and I had to download CD #2 twice!  (md5sum check failed)
> 
> Ahh!, so that's why you said: 
> 
> > Disable idle option

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 00:56:00 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Dialup download installation extra points
In-Reply-To: <1070602091.13370.93.camel@wbaker>
References: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
	<1070602091.13370.93.camel@wbaker>
Message-ID: <20031205005600.0e5c4532.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:

> You mean you don't want to download from dialup?  Wuss! ;-)  I just got
> through downloading all 3 Fedora CDs over dialup, and I had to download
> CD #2 twice!  (md5sum check failed)

For extra bonus points, check out 

   http://caosity.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=57&op=page&SubMenu=

and start your installation.  

From bill_chris at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  5 04:10:11 2003
From: bill_chris at earthlink.net (Bill Baker)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Dialup download installation extra points
In-Reply-To: <20031205005600.0e5c4532.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: <16335.41592.277971.449343@funky>
	 <1070602091.13370.93.camel@wbaker>
	 <20031205005600.0e5c4532.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1070615409.13370.100.camel@wbaker>

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 00:56, Jim P wrote:
> Bill Baker <bill_chris@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > You mean you don't want to download from dialup?  Wuss! ;-)  I just got
> > through downloading all 3 Fedora CDs over dialup, and I had to download
> > CD #2 twice!  (md5sum check failed)
> 
> For extra bonus points, check out 
> 
>    http://caosity.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=57&op=page&SubMenu=
> 
> and start your installation.  

Hehehe...I like the fourth prerequisite:  high speed internet access (or
lots and lots of time).

--Bill

From mrkurt426 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 08:15:08 2003
From: mrkurt426 at yahoo.com (Kurt Moeller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Just say ".nyet", dahling....
Message-ID: <20031205131508.78466.qmail@web14523.mail.yahoo.com>

Quoting Mr. Pat Collins, on the subject of Micosoft
.NET:

>>Attended a Microsoft sponsered MSDN event today and
it might has well 
have
been led by the devil him-self...
Security, there still calling it palladium.  
Why
can't I remember that /. comment about the new name
when I need it.<< 

The new term is Next Generation Secure Computing Base.
 I think I read an interview the other day with the
director of Windows Security who said that Palladium
was someone else's trademark.  So that MVP was
committing trademark infringement.  My Translation is
Next Generator of Company Revenue, 'cuz you have to
buy all new hardware and software to use NGSCB. :<)

>>Linux, we aren't doing this so you won't be able to
run any other
operating system.  Cough...BS...Cough.<<

Actually, I  think it has more to do with keeping
track of their customers who run Windows.   
Seriously.  That's where the cash comes from, so they
want all of their Windows installs to phone home so
that everybody on Licensing 6.0 or whatever plan they
have pays their MS tax.  They want everybody to buy a
service contract from them, which explains why they
are hobbling TechNet-- to squeeze out the MCSEs and
small consultancies who are serving small businesses. 
Bob Cringely wrote about this recently:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20031120.html

The RIAA, MPAA, et. al., are along for the ride.

>>Other than that, they seem to be using a lot of
ideas from Open Source 
(QT
came to mind) in there dot NET super duper IDE.  I got
a free "man" 
pack
with a bunch of propoganda.<<

I used to attend the .net developers group there. 
They aren't affiliated officially with MS, but they
let them use their meeting rooms and give away free
stuff.  I have Visual Studio.net beta 2 on my Windows
machine.  I've had hardly an opportunity to use it
beyond a "Hello World" app just to see if it worked. 
I am too busy doing stuff on VS 6.  I have spent more
time with another IDE that is becoming my favorite--
Boa Constructor.

>>Anybody know how to remove the ironed on 
label
from this thing so I won't be embarassed to use it? 
At least the 
t-shirt
fit and I needed a new one to wear when working on my
car.<<

Sorry bud, can't help you there.  That comment made me
chuckle.  

Quoting manifoldnick:

>>.NET is becoming available on linux 
through mono http://www.go-mono.com. I personally
don't see the incredible 
benefit to .NET but some people love it.<<

Mostly it's folks who want an application framework to
use and who really don't want to use Java or the real
.NET.  I don't see the benefit either-- Mono is a
subset of .NET and always will be.  

>>Note: I am sure that microsoft 
has made it altogether impossible to have true
platform independence 
and has built .NET so it works best with Windows, and
that is why i will 
never use mono i am not going to be forced to play by
microsoft's rules<<

You nailed that one.  I could never understand why
Miguel wasted so much of Ximian's resources on Mono,
when they could have made GNOME, Evolution, etc., a
kick-butt Linux desktop.  We're about to find out if
Novell will put it to good use or whether it will be
shelved.  --K.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
From vherried at insight.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 08:48:40 2003
From: vherried at insight.rr.com (Vince Herried)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] re: RR security issues.
Message-ID: <200312050848.40062.vherried@insight.rr.com>

I turned in logs in the past with unsure results.

The ip address would bang against me five or six times/day b4 my call
after several weeks it stopped...

Then it started up again, but fewer times/day.


-- 
                                      Vince
She has an alarm clock and a phone that don't ring -- they applaud.

From sun at percipia.com  Fri Dec  5 09:21:18 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (Sundaram Ramasamy)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] FAT File system write problem
References: 
	<200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org><200312041559.54701.rfunk@fun
	knet.net> <002c01c3baae$2890cd00$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
	<1833.216.136.35.122.1070575491.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <001601c3bb3b$0ce33fb0$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Merrill" <skippy@skippy.net>
To: "Central OH Linux User Group" <colug@colug.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [COLUG] FAT File system write problem


> Sundaram Ramasamy said:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Redhat 9.0 Linux I am mounting FAT Fileystem like this.
> >
> > /dev/hdd1               /data                   vfat     defaults
0
> > 0
> >
> > As a root user I was able to create/delete a file. With other user I was
> > not
> > able to create a file it giving Permission denied error message.
>
> Did you mount the partition as root?
>
> What are the permissions on the mount point (/data)?

yes  mount this as a root ( during the system  boot time)

drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         4096 Sep  4 10:40 /data

Here is my /etc/fstab file entry.
/dev/hdd1               /data                  vfat     defaults       0 0

with this entry only user with uid=500 able to write.
/dev/hdd1               /data                   vfat   uid=500,noauto,owner
0 0

Thanks

> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>

From skippy at skippy.net  Fri Dec  5 09:56:29 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] FAT File system write problem
In-Reply-To: <001601c3bb3b$0ce33fb0$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
References: 
     <200312041954.hB4JsVg20053@srv45.cas.org><200312041559.54701.rfunk@fun
     knet.net> 
     <002c01c3baae$2890cd00$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM><1833.216.136.35.122.1070575
     491.squirrel@www.skippy.net> 
     <001601c3bb3b$0ce33fb0$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
Message-ID: <2625.216.136.35.122.1070636189.squirrel@www.skippy.net>

Sundaram Ramasamy said:
>> What are the permissions on the mount point (/data)?
>
> yes  mount this as a root ( during the system  boot time)
>
> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         4096 Sep  4 10:40 /data

Try changing the permissions on the top-level directory (/data) to allow
users to write to it.  Note that there's only on "w" in the permissions
above, and that's for root.  Thus, only root can create files.

Even though the mounted filesystem (FAT) has no idea of permissions, Linux
still honors the permissions set on the mount point (/data).

You could either set it +w for a single group, users, perhaps:
   chgrp users /data; chmod g+w /data
or you could make it +w for _everyone_:
   chmod o+w /data
From colug at jmglov.net  Fri Dec  5 10:37:30 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <64678.69.68.37.57.1070591744.squirrel@69.68.37.57>
References: <5f6865fb44.5fb445f686@columbus.rr.com>
    <64678.69.68.37.57.1070591744.squirrel@69.68.37.57>
Message-ID: <3656.24.123.50.150.1070638650.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth William Hooper

> I have no personal experience with security@rr.com.  I really doubt that
> they are interested it helping people clean their machines.  If they were
> they could easily set up an IDS to find these machines a long time ago.
> Most likely they will just look at it and say "Infected Windows Machine,
> move on".

If you happen to be a Road Runner customer, you will find that you can force
them to do something about it. I *always* prosecute worms poking at my
webserver from my own ISPs machines, and have had good luck with reporting
offending IPs to (security|abuse)@isp.tld, along with a portscan. In my
opinion, a worm prodding at my webserver (and causing no harm, since I don't
run IIS) is just cause for me to portscan the originating IP and note that
something interesting is running on port 6667 or whatever. Your hat colour or
moral outlook my preclude this. ;)

Anyway, in my experience, an email with a detailed explanation of what is
going on typically leads to action from the abuse department of the ISP.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu  Fri Dec  5 13:26:33 2003
From: blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu (Wade Pinkston)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] debian nic's
Message-ID: <3FD0CDD9.5090401@bugs.osu.edu>

I have recently installed Debian 30r1 and I am having problems with the 
nics.  I two to choose from an intell 10t and a Gigafast 100.  I believe 
the appropriate drivers are the eepro.so and rtl8139.so respectively.  
In turn I have installed both cards singly, that is only eth0 is in the 
box.  I have edited the /etc/modules file to include
alias eth0 eepro
and
alias eth0 rtl8139

as well as editing the /etc/network/interfaces file to include
auto eth0
iface eth0 inet dhcp

when the system boots it hangs with this message

SIOCSIFFLAGS: resources temporarily unavailable

then eventually continues booting.

after boot ifconfig revels only lo as being loaded  ifup eth0 states 
that eth0 is already loaded and ifdown seems to work.

What am I missing?  Where am I misconfiguring?  The bios settings are 
all set to PCI auto assign irq and IOs.  Any assistance would be greatly 
appreciated.

-- 
Wade Pinkston
The Ohio State University
Extension Entomology
1991 Kenny Rd
Columbus OH 43210
phone: (614) 292-5274

Ipsa scientia potestas est


From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 14:57:12 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
Message-ID: <6db5f6e1fb.6e1fb6db5f@columbus.rr.com>

It is in RR's terms and license agreement etc. that they will notify the person. I mentioned to them that i myself was a RR subscriber so maybe that will help. Personally to me it does not matter if that machine is attacking me because the user is ignorant or because they aren't it is still attacking my machine. The only difference is that i want to educate the ignorant and attack the ones that should know better. I let 99% of things go, eg portscans, and isolated incidents. If I start getting what looks like a research offensive on my server i am going to have to stop that. Also obvious attempts at spoofing as i will not let my webserver be manipulated. 

----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Glover <colug@jmglov.net>
Date: Friday, December 5, 2003 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [COLUG] RR security issues.

> Quoth William Hooper
> 
> > I have no personal experience with security@rr.com.  I really 
> doubt that
> > they are interested it helping people clean their machines.  If 
> they were
> > they could easily set up an IDS to find these machines a long 
> time ago.
> > Most likely they will just look at it and say "Infected Windows 
> Machine,> move on".
> 
> If you happen to be a Road Runner customer, you will find that you 
> can force
> them to do something about it. I *always* prosecute worms poking 
> at my
> webserver from my own ISPs machines, and have had good luck with 
> reportingoffending IPs to (security|abuse)@isp.tld, along with a 
> portscan. In my
> opinion, a worm prodding at my webserver (and causing no harm, 
> since I don't
> run IIS) is just cause for me to portscan the originating IP and 
> note that
> something interesting is running on port 6667 or whatever. Your 
> hat colour or
> moral outlook my preclude this. ;)
> 
> Anyway, in my experience, an email with a detailed explanation of 
> what is
> going on typically leads to action from the abuse department of 
> the ISP.
> 
> -- 
> Josh Glover
> 
> GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 
> DE8A 3103)
> gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 15:38:05 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
Message-ID: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>

BEFORE you read. If you don't want to read it then don't, please. I know i go on long rants and if you can't stand that fine. Just don't read it. Although i encourage you to do so.
--------------------------------------------



First off i want to say this is all my personal opinions i didn't run off and do benchmarking or field research for this so bear with me and if you see any gaping holes i urge you to fill 'em!

Is it just me or does the name of a programming language pretty much tell you everything you need to know about it?

Look at C. It's direct to the point and fast to say. It is one monolithic letter C. You can't argue with that. And C is the most direct to the point language. It's fast and is THE monolithic language of the computer world the "language to rule them all" if you don't mind cheesy movie puns.

Moving across the field completely Java. The name like C doesn't mean a whole lot, except with Java it is so incredibly irrelevant and pointless that i almost never picked up the language, Which to this very day i regret doing. Java's promise of finally and for all time bridging the gap between platforms was faulty from the get go and that was before microsoft got a hold of it. What java sacrificed to get this cross platform comaptibility was performance features and the ability for low level resource management which makes it a "hell no" for serious enterprise app development. For me anyways Java was harder to learn than C/C++ especially if you coded using higher level libraries for C/C++ like GTK+, Qt, etc. The only saving grace for Java was the revered Applet. Oh think of the possibilites everyone said! This is going to revolutionize the way we think of the internet! Or, the pointless and never decently implemented Applet would become just as hated as the marquee's and th!
 e blink t

Our beloved PERL! Unlike Java perl is and acronym: Practical Extraction and Report Language, to be precise and it does what it is supposed to do and does it incredibly well. Enough said.

.NET So microsoft revolutionized the way we develop software with dot net? Oh uhhh no thanks I think I will stick to my oh so inferior languages like C and Perl and PHP. As far as i know .NET is like Java except instead of being forced to use the java syntax you can use any of the VS languages, which is respectable and a nice idea. However if this is true i would imagine to have  proper implementation you would only be as strong as your weakest language. I really don't have any experience with it. I know some Windows only coders that swear by it either way it CAN'T be worse than Java, I hate Java.

 
Visual Basic (not VB .NET) While most geeks knock VB i happen to have a very special place for it in my heart. I first learned to code in it which i will admit was a bad idea. However if you happen to be on a windows platform and you need an application fast VB is for you. VB is so ridiculously high level that you could never dream of doing serious coding in it but if you need an accounting program and you choose VB to do it let's just say you would need to blow the dust off of those copies of UT 2003. Of course i am going to pay for that little snipped so come on let me have it!

PHP In php's particular category it kicks everything else's ass hands down, end of story. While many of you have come to love the Perl/CGI combo you just can't come close to the added performance, flexibility, and simplicity of php. I personally think that there is nothing that comes close to running php as an apache module, well except maybe running it with caudium again no experience here i would love to hear from someone who has. The lure of LAMP was so strong, that I completely rewrote my entire site. picked up an entirely different operating system (linux) and have never looked back. Not to mention i had thoroughly mastered ASP and thoguht so much of php to master it and completely trash my ASP knowledge. Not that learning either was that much of a feat. 

well thanks for reading my rant feel free to nit pick offer advice, comments. Please also excuse any spelling error'r run ons chopped sentences. I could not tab in or do anything fancy as i am on RR webmail. Thanks for reading!


From colug at jmglov.net  Fri Dec  5 16:40:29 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
References: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1271.24.123.50.150.1070660429.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com

> First off i want to say this is all my personal opinions i didn't run off and
> do benchmarking or field research for this so bear with me and if you see any
> gaping holes i urge you to fill 'em!

Sure. I will respond with my own personal opinions.

> Is it just me or does the name of a programming language pretty much tell you
> everything you need to know about it?

An apt observation, to be sure.

> What java sacrificed to get this cross platform comaptibility was performance
> features and the ability for low level resource management which makes it a
> "hell no" for serious enterprise app development.

Hrm, this claim does not seem to hold much water. I would say that Java excels
at serious enterprise apps, due to:

a) its excellent scalability
b) the great deployment and testing tools that exists (such as Ant and JMeter)
c) Javadoc, which makes it easy to generate API documentation on the fly

There are probably more reasons, but these are the ones that leap to mind.

> For me anyways Java was harder to learn than C/C++ especially if you coded
> using higher level libraries for C/C++ like GTK+, Qt, etc.

I think that any comparison between language X and "C/C++" is a bit flawed to
begin with, since C and C++ are pretty different beasts in many ways. I
believe that Java and C++ both have about the same number of keywords, for
example. C has quite a bit fewer, lacking native OOP features.

IMO, the impediment to learning Java is the huge and at times unwieldy
libraries. On the plus side, the Java library contains most of the things that
you need to do, which has the positive result of greatly accerating code
development once you have learned the API enough to know where to look for
widget X or algorithm Y.

> The only saving grace for Java was the revered Applet. Oh think of the
> possibilites everyone said! This is going to revolutionize the way we think
> of the internet!

This seems to be ignoring things like Jakara Tomcat and EJB and JavaStruts and
all of those other technologies that enable delightfully scalable and robust
web applications without requiring a complete re-invention of the web
framework wheel every time out.

> Our beloved PERL! Unlike Java perl is and acronym: Practical Extraction and
> Report Language, to be precise and it does what it is supposed to do and does
> it incredibly well. Enough said.

I would add to this that Perl is *the* glue language, and this feature allows
almost ludicrously fast and easy prototyping.

> I know some Windows only coders that swear by it either way it CAN'T be worse
> than Java, I hate Java.

I am no fan of Java, but I must admit that it does have its strong points. Its
OOP facilities are better than C++'s, and seem to be as good as any other OOP
language out there.

You seem to be so anti-Java that you are ignoring any benefits it may have.
This can be a dangerous attitude for a professional Software Engineer, as it
takes a weapon out of your warchest. The reason that there are so many
programming languages out there is that many of them are better at one
specific thing than any other language. E.g. I would never dream of using
anything besides Perl for text parsing unless I had a bloody good reason, and
I will do all systems programming in C unless the circumstances dictate
otherwise. Use the right language for the job, this saves time and effort.

> VB is so ridiculously high level that you could never dream of doing serious
> coding in it [...]

I must again disagree. Since VB gives you hooks into the Win32 and WinNT API,
it does become a tool (on the Windows platform only, of course) in which
"serious coding" can be done.

> PHP In php's particular category it kicks everything else's ass hands down,
> end of story.

I have a new chapter for the story: PHP4 is *not* the greatest thing since
sliced bread. I admit that if you need to whip up a quick web application,
especially one with a MySQL backend, PHP is the tool for the job. However,
larger and more heavy-duty applications expose the fact that PHP is still an
immature language, which an engine that breaks down under heavy stress.

I think you will find, if you push PHP4 to the scalability breaking point,
that point comes a lot earlier than it would with Apache + mod_perl, or
Jakarta Tomcat.

Search the archives, there was a big PHP discussion a few (four?) months back.

> well thanks for reading my rant feel free to nit pick offer advice, comments.
> Please also excuse any spelling error'r run ons chopped sentences. I could not
> tab in or do anything fancy as i am on RR webmail. Thanks for reading!

Your thoughts were certainly thought-provoking (please take that in the spirit
in which it was intended, as a good thing!), and I hope that they have served
as the basis for a good comparitative discussion.

Please do not take my comments as a personal attack. They are simply my opinions.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 16:45:47 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
Message-ID: <7428c723bb.723bb7428c@columbus.rr.com>

I just checked out cAos linux, and almost installed it. I am going to have to use something other than what comes with cAos to repartition my disk so I don't have to remove slack on my test machine. Then I got thinking, why? SUSE comes with every bell and whistle and is a multimedia machine. Trustix is for security, Knoppix for demo purposes, Debian for APT. Mandrake for the newbie ease of use. Slack and cAos seem to be going for the same general thing. I read through all of cAos's missions statements. All seems very slack like to me. Another thing don't put us through 8 releases having to type that big A, SUSE changed their name because everyone hated that. I know someone on here is in the project and i am not saying anything bad about it i really do want to know, i am thinking about switching to it. I got the 5 year thing, the HPC thing all of that sort of thing. Slack doesn't use RPM's which i love. they are so simple to install!

From rfunk at funknet.net  Fri Dec  5 17:19:08 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
References: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200312051719.08703.rfunk@funknet.net>

manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>  While many of you have come to love the Perl/CGI
> combo you just can't come close to the added performance, flexibility,
> and simplicity of php. I personally think that there is nothing that
> comes close to running php as an apache module,

Maybe mod_perl?


Josh pretty much covered my other thoughts.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 17:20:49 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
Message-ID: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>

I don't, honestly some people hate Java some people love it. I have talked to people on both sides of the fence. Obviously if you are a Java fan then you would pretty much disagree with what I have said. 

If you are an IT manager i will just shit myself. I was talking to a developer friend of mine who complained that it is so easy to sell Java to a manager because of what it promises. Devolopment DOES take longer, there was an article a while back where a professor at MIT had his class seperate into groups to make basically a website, each group choose different tools, think php asp javapages via jakarta the jakarta team didn't even get their page working and failed while everyone else was working on making everything look good. As i understand it with javapages they are compiled into an intermediary language so it is more easily interpreted that allows for your robustness, i personally have never had any problems with php.

Java programs like limewire make my p4 1.8ghz look like my old 450mhz machine, sure it might be ok on the command line but in that case why not use something else?

I am aware of the hooks in VB to utilize windows dll's and that is why it is a nice language.

I don't think that you can say that C/C++ are different beasts. A valid C program is a valid C++ program. 

I actually find the "unwieldy" amount of Java libraries one of the only comforts of coding in it. here is why: "ok so you want a database frontend, that encrypts information then stores it in the database ok." cheesy example but stay with me. All you have to do is open up the good ole java reference manual table of contents database page whatever cryptography page whatever. As opposed to going to MySQL for their dbase C library then running off and getting a cryptography library. 

Hrm, this claim does not seem to hold much water. I would say that Java excels
at serious enterprise apps, due to:

a) its excellent scalability
b) the great deployment and testing tools that exists (such as Ant and JMeter)
c) Javadoc, which makes it easy to generate API documentation on the fly

Doxygen, Electricfence, etc and are you saying that C wouldn't be even more scalable if you know what you are doing. 


I don't take it as a personal attack at all. Same goes for what I say to you. If either of us could say "hey you're absolutely right" then java or C development would stop altogether and everyone would use the other. Obviously there is no clean cut victor of the two languages i think they are neck and neck in this race. My personal preference is going the C route. Oh and I am a die hard php fan don't expect to make any ground there, although i will admit that i might be a little more open to java now ;)




----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Glover <colug@jmglov.net>
Date: Friday, December 5, 2003 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: [COLUG] It's all in the name

> Quoth manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com
> 
> > First off i want to say this is all my personal opinions i didn't 
> run off and
> > do benchmarking or field research for this so bear with me and if 
> you see any
> > gaping holes i urge you to fill 'em!
> 
> Sure. I will respond with my own personal opinions.
> 
> > Is it just me or does the name of a programming language pretty 
> much tell you
> > everything you need to know about it?
> 
> An apt observation, to be sure.
> 
> > What java sacrificed to get this cross platform comaptibility was 
> performance> features and the ability for low level resource 
> management which makes it a
> > "hell no" for serious enterprise app development.
> 
> Hrm, this claim does not seem to hold much water. I would say that 
> Java excels
> at serious enterprise apps, due to:
> 
> a) its excellent scalability
> b) the great deployment and testing tools that exists (such as Ant 
> and JMeter)
> c) Javadoc, which makes it easy to generate API documentation on 
> the fly
> 
> There are probably more reasons, but these are the ones that leap 
> to mind.
> 
> > For me anyways Java was harder to learn than C/C++ especially if 
> you coded
> > using higher level libraries for C/C++ like GTK+, Qt, etc.
> 
> I think that any comparison between language X and "C/C++" is a bit 
> flawed to
> begin with, since C and C++ are pretty different beasts in many 
> ways. I
> believe that Java and C++ both have about the same number of 
> keywords, for
> example. C has quite a bit fewer, lacking native OOP features.
> 
> IMO, the impediment to learning Java is the huge and at times unwieldy
> libraries. On the plus side, the Java library contains most of the 
> things that
> you need to do, which has the positive result of greatly accerating 
> codedevelopment once you have learned the API enough to know where 
> to look for
> widget X or algorithm Y.
> 
> > The only saving grace for Java was the revered Applet. Oh think 
> of the
> > possibilites everyone said! This is going to revolutionize the 
> way we think
> > of the internet!
> 
> This seems to be ignoring things like Jakara Tomcat and EJB and 
> JavaStruts and
> all of those other technologies that enable delightfully scalable 
> and robust
> web applications without requiring a complete re-invention of the web
> framework wheel every time out.
> 
> > Our beloved PERL! Unlike Java perl is and acronym: Practical 
> Extraction and
> > Report Language, to be precise and it does what it is supposed to 
> do and does
> > it incredibly well. Enough said.
> 
> I would add to this that Perl is *the* glue language, and this 
> feature allows
> almost ludicrously fast and easy prototyping.
> 
> > I know some Windows only coders that swear by it either way it 
> CAN'T be worse
> > than Java, I hate Java.
> 
> I am no fan of Java, but I must admit that it does have its strong 
> points. Its
> OOP facilities are better than C++'s, and seem to be as good as any 
> other OOP
> language out there.
> 
> You seem to be so anti-Java that you are ignoring any benefits it 
> may have.
> This can be a dangerous attitude for a professional Software 
> Engineer, as it
> takes a weapon out of your warchest. The reason that there are so many
> programming languages out there is that many of them are better at one
> specific thing than any other language. E.g. I would never dream of 
> usinganything besides Perl for text parsing unless I had a bloody 
> good reason, and
> I will do all systems programming in C unless the circumstances 
> dictateotherwise. Use the right language for the job, this saves 
> time and effort.
> 
> > VB is so ridiculously high level that you could never dream of 
> doing serious
> > coding in it [...]
> 
> I must again disagree. Since VB gives you hooks into the Win32 and 
> WinNT API,
> it does become a tool (on the Windows platform only, of course) in 
> which"serious coding" can be done.
> 
> > PHP In php's particular category it kicks everything else's ass 
> hands down,
> > end of story.
> 
> I have a new chapter for the story: PHP4 is *not* the greatest 
> thing since
> sliced bread. I admit that if you need to whip up a quick web 
> application,especially one with a MySQL backend, PHP is the tool 
> for the job. However,
> larger and more heavy-duty applications expose the fact that PHP is 
> still an
> immature language, which an engine that breaks down under heavy 
> stress.
> I think you will find, if you push PHP4 to the scalability breaking 
> point,that point comes a lot earlier than it would with Apache + 
> mod_perl, or
> Jakarta Tomcat.
> 
> Search the archives, there was a big PHP discussion a few (four?) 
> months back.
> 
> > well thanks for reading my rant feel free to nit pick offer 
> advice, comments.
> > Please also excuse any spelling error'r run ons chopped 
> sentences. I could not
> > tab in or do anything fancy as i am on RR webmail. Thanks for 
> reading!
> Your thoughts were certainly thought-provoking (please take that in 
> the spirit
> in which it was intended, as a good thing!), and I hope that they 
> have served
> as the basis for a good comparitative discussion.
> 
> Please do not take my comments as a personal attack. They are 
> simply my opinions.
> 
> -- 
> Josh Glover
> 
> GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 
> 3103)gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From garyiddings at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 17:23:56 2003
From: garyiddings at yahoo.com (Gary Iddings)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:53 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: canonical definition
In-Reply-To: <20031130020510.93963.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031205222356.79916.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com>

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:05:10 -0800 (PST) Gary Iddings <garyiddings@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 23 May 2002 16:55:01 -0700 (PDT) cmh_linus <cmh_linus@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> 
> > What does "canonical" mean for software?  
> > 
> > Webster doesn't help.  
> 
> p67 of the Dec. 1, 2003 issue of The New Yorker doesn't help either.  

p67 has a cartoon about "canonical martini" 
that respect for copyrights keeps me from posting.  

Also search for canonical in: 
http://rob.rnovak.net/content/archives/Individual/000035.php



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 17:32:50 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
Message-ID: <7cd3e78861.788617cd3e@columbus.rr.com>

I have, it is php with a different syntax lol. If i did want to go the perl route i would definitely use mod_perl

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net>
Date: Friday, December 5, 2003 2:19 pm
Subject: Re: [COLUG] It's all in the name

> manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> >  While many of you have come to love the Perl/CGI
> > combo you just can't come close to the added performance, 
> flexibility,> and simplicity of php. I personally think that there 
> is nothing that
> > comes close to running php as an apache module,
> 
> Maybe mod_perl?
> 
> 
> Josh pretty much covered my other thoughts.
> 
> -- 
> ==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
> Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
> http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From mrkurt426 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 17:33:45 2003
From: mrkurt426 at yahoo.com (Kurt Moeller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
In-Reply-To: <7428c723bb.723bb7428c@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031205223345.67767.qmail@web14524.mail.yahoo.com>


--- manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>>I am going to 
have to use something other than what comes with cAos
to repartition my 
disk so I don't have to remove slack on my test
machine.<<

So, did it want to blow away everything on there?  I
know they suggest using fdisk to change partitions,
but if you can use another tool, it would probably be
easier.  I was going to ask this question on IRC or
the cAos mail list, since I have a dual boot system I
want to keep.  I have Win 2K and RH8, and I want to
put cAos on the existing Linux partition.  


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
From colug at jmglov.net  Fri Dec  5 17:49:36 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3910.24.123.50.150.1070664576.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com

> If you are an IT manager i will just shit myself. I was talking to a developer
> friend of mine who complained that it is so easy to sell Java to a manager
> because of what it promises. Devolopment DOES take longer, there was an
> article a while back where a professor at MIT had his class seperate into
> groups to make basically a website, each group choose different tools, think
> php asp javapages via jakarta the jakarta team didn't even get their page
> working and failed while everyone else was working on making everything look
> good.

I think that all this proves is that there is a steeper learning curve to
Tomcat, which I readily admit. However, as with other things with steep
learning  curves (e.g. Unix), there are some benefits to those who are willing
to invest the ramp-up time.

And I am certainly not an IT manager, or any other sort of manager. I love the
coding too much for that.

> Java programs like limewire make my p4 1.8ghz look like my old 450mhz machine,
> sure it might be ok on the command line but in that case why not use something
> else?

Java has a big memory footprint, but I don't find it much *slower* in practise
than many C++ applications (oh yes, C++ is slower than C in most cases, there
is another difference), especially with 1.4's NIO stuff.

> I don't think that you can say that C/C++ are different beasts. A valid C
> program is a valid C++ program.

But the inverse does not hold, and hence my point. C++ introduces some
abiguity into the C grammar. In fact, it is possible to represent C's grammar
entirely in BNF notation (and thus use a parse generator on it), which it is
not possible for C++.

C is a systems programming language, and, as one of my professors memorably
said, C++ is a systems programming language with OOP tumors grafted on.

This is not to say that I do not think C++ is a good language, I am just
trying to emphasis that the two languages are more different than popularly
believed.

> I actually find the "unwieldy" amount of Java libraries one of the only
> comforts of coding in it.

The libraries, as I said, are unwieldy to the uninitiated, a boon once learned.

>> Hrm, this claim does not seem to hold much water. I would say that Java
>> excels at serious enterprise apps, due to:
>>
>> a) its excellent scalability
>> b) the great deployment and testing tools that exists (such as Ant and
>>    JMeter)
>> c) Javadoc, which makes it easy to generate API documentation on the fly
>
> Doxygen, Electricfence, etc and are you saying that C wouldn't be even more
> scalable if you know what you are doing.

No, I was not saying that C is not scalable, nor that it does not possess
these other qualities. Though actually, C comes nowhere near Java when it
comes to (b). Sure, there are tools like ElectricFence, the wonderful
Valgrind[1], and UVA's Splint[2], but there exist no automated testing
frameworks like JMeter.

It may (or may not) surprise you to learn that I do most of my coding in C,
due to the fact that most of what I do is systems programming. It may surprise
you further to learn that I dislike programming in Java, and dislike Java's
position as the All-Purpose Language du Jour if you believe the hype. However,
as I said before, I don't like to write off languages when it is clear that
they have value.

> I don't take it as a personal attack at all. Same goes for what I say to you.
> If either of us could say "hey you're absolutely right" then java or C
> development would stop altogether and everyone would use the other.

I don't see how C and Java are in competition. C is clearly better for some
things, and Java clearly better for others. As Perl is clearly better for
others entirely, and Python... and so on, ad nauseum.

Cheers,
Josh

[1] http://valgrind.kde.org/
[2] http://www.splint.org/

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)

gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From rfunk at funknet.net  Fri Dec  5 18:12:51 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200312051812.51213.rfunk@funknet.net>

manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> I don't think that you can say that C/C++ are different beasts. A valid
> C program is a valid C++ program.

Anyone who thinks like this doesn't understand C++.

A *good* (not merely valid) C program is usually a valid C++ program, but 
that doesn't make it a *good* C++ program.  A good C++ program uses the 
strengths of C++, which are totally different from the strengths of C.

The inventor of C++ himself says:
(http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html)
- "Most of the features I dislike from a language-design perspective are 
part of the C subset of C++... By now, C++ has features that allows a 
programmer to refrain from using the most troublesome C features."
- "C++ provides stronger type checking than C and directly supports a wider 
range of programming styles than C."

I'm more in the C++-is-bloated camp, preferring Perl, Python, or Java where 
C isn't a good fit.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 21:12:46 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <3910.24.123.50.150.1070664576.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
	 <3910.24.123.50.150.1070664576.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1070676766.2936.16.camel@linux.local>

I think we are digging to deep here and are getting sidetracked. My
opinion on Java is simple. I don't want to write in it. And i don't want
to use any program written in it when i could use a C/C++ version. I am
sure that C is very different when you get down to it than C++ I am
talking about higher level application development. 

It doesn't surprise me that you do most of your coding in C it is the
superior language!!!!!!! I though that is what i had been saying! Think
overall i mean of course you could say well java does this and then i
could point you to this project or this benchmark or this site, we could
do that for years. I use C you use C i run programs written in C before
Java I think that speaks it all. 

I have never meant anyone, ever, who has said they enjoy coding in java.
I am sure it has value. For me it is not enough to convince me to code
or use any java product. 

I wanted to make that point again about it all being personal
preference. I bet that there is some webserver out there that churns out
this page this much faster using this language than this other webserver
running this... etc. etc. etc. I have found it interesting to hear
Josh's views i really have and want to thank him for responding and
provoking intelligent debate. Anyone else have any opinions? What does
everyone else use in their development life?




On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:49, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com
> 
> > If you are an IT manager i will just shit myself. I was talking to a developer
> > friend of mine who complained that it is so easy to sell Java to a manager
> > because of what it promises. Devolopment DOES take longer, there was an
> > article a while back where a professor at MIT had his class seperate into
> > groups to make basically a website, each group choose different tools, think
> > php asp javapages via jakarta the jakarta team didn't even get their page
> > working and failed while everyone else was working on making everything look
> > good.
> 
> I think that all this proves is that there is a steeper learning curve to
> Tomcat, which I readily admit. However, as with other things with steep
> learning  curves (e.g. Unix), there are some benefits to those who are willing
> to invest the ramp-up time.
> 
> And I am certainly not an IT manager, or any other sort of manager. I love the
> coding too much for that.
> 
> > Java programs like limewire make my p4 1.8ghz look like my old 450mhz machine,
> > sure it might be ok on the command line but in that case why not use something
> > else?
> 
> Java has a big memory footprint, but I don't find it much *slower* in practise
> than many C++ applications (oh yes, C++ is slower than C in most cases, there
> is another difference), especially with 1.4's NIO stuff.
> 
> > I don't think that you can say that C/C++ are different beasts. A valid C
> > program is a valid C++ program.
> 
> But the inverse does not hold, and hence my point. C++ introduces some
> abiguity into the C grammar. In fact, it is possible to represent C's grammar
> entirely in BNF notation (and thus use a parse generator on it), which it is
> not possible for C++.
> 
> C is a systems programming language, and, as one of my professors memorably
> said, C++ is a systems programming language with OOP tumors grafted on.
> 
> This is not to say that I do not think C++ is a good language, I am just
> trying to emphasis that the two languages are more different than popularly
> believed.
> 
> > I actually find the "unwieldy" amount of Java libraries one of the only
> > comforts of coding in it.
> 
> The libraries, as I said, are unwieldy to the uninitiated, a boon once learned.
> 
> >> Hrm, this claim does not seem to hold much water. I would say that Java
> >> excels at serious enterprise apps, due to:
> >>
> >> a) its excellent scalability
> >> b) the great deployment and testing tools that exists (such as Ant and
> >>    JMeter)
> >> c) Javadoc, which makes it easy to generate API documentation on the fly
> >
> > Doxygen, Electricfence, etc and are you saying that C wouldn't be even more
> > scalable if you know what you are doing.
> 
> No, I was not saying that C is not scalable, nor that it does not possess
> these other qualities. Though actually, C comes nowhere near Java when it
> comes to (b). Sure, there are tools like ElectricFence, the wonderful
> Valgrind[1], and UVA's Splint[2], but there exist no automated testing
> frameworks like JMeter.
> 
> It may (or may not) surprise you to learn that I do most of my coding in C,
> due to the fact that most of what I do is systems programming. It may surprise
> you further to learn that I dislike programming in Java, and dislike Java's
> position as the All-Purpose Language du Jour if you believe the hype. However,
> as I said before, I don't like to write off languages when it is clear that
> they have value.
> 
> > I don't take it as a personal attack at all. Same goes for what I say to you.
> > If either of us could say "hey you're absolutely right" then java or C
> > development would stop altogether and everyone would use the other.
> 
> I don't see how C and Java are in competition. C is clearly better for some
> things, and Java clearly better for others. As Perl is clearly better for
> others entirely, and Python... and so on, ad nauseum.
> 
> Cheers,
> Josh
> 
> [1] http://valgrind.kde.org/
> [2] http://www.splint.org/

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 21:17:27 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <200312051812.51213.rfunk@funknet.net>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
	 <200312051812.51213.rfunk@funknet.net>
Message-ID: <1070677046.2935.20.camel@linux.local>

Ok fine a good C program is a valid C++ program, but is a good java
program a valid perl script? They share a very close syntax especially
for completely different languages. Features wise pretty much anything C
can do C++ can do,

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 15:12, Rob Funk wrote:
> manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > I don't think that you can say that C/C++ are different beasts. A valid
> > C program is a valid C++ program.
> 
> Anyone who thinks like this doesn't understand C++.
> 
> A *good* (not merely valid) C program is usually a valid C++ program, but 
> that doesn't make it a *good* C++ program.  A good C++ program uses the 
> strengths of C++, which are totally different from the strengths of C.
> 
> The inventor of C++ himself says:
> (http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html)
> - "Most of the features I dislike from a language-design perspective are 
> part of the C subset of C++... By now, C++ has features that allows a 
> programmer to refrain from using the most troublesome C features."
> - "C++ provides stronger type checking than C and directly supports a wider 
> range of programming styles than C."
> 
> I'm more in the C++-is-bloated camp, preferring Perl, Python, or Java where 
> C isn't a good fit.

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 18:35:49 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: nmblookup and iptables: --sport 135:137
In-Reply-To: <1070582079.73ae2560bnmille@myrealbox.com>
References: <1070582079.73ae2560bnmille@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20031205183549.172ee1f6.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

Yesterday, Brian Miller <bnmille@myrealbox.com> wrote:

> You need to allow packets FROM ports 135 and 137.  
> Your firewall configuration allows packets TO those ports.  
> If you could limit the IP range from which you receive the packets, 
> that would help protect you somewhat from malicious activities:
> 
> iptables -A INPUT -s Class_C_network/24 -p udp -m udp --sport 135-137 -j ACCEPT

Per your line above, I added the following to /etc/sysconfig/iptables 
on my RH9 box: 

   -A RH-Lokkit-0-50-INPUT -s 10.0.0.2/8 -p udp -m udp --sport 135:137 -j ACCEPT

which has one important change: 

   Changed range syntax from '135-137' to '135:137'.  (bug fix)

> Hope this helps.

It does!  Thanks for not forgetting about this problem.  
I think this will resolve several Samba problems I've had forever.  
Thanks again.  

Jim P

From john at burroway.net  Fri Dec  5 18:50:59 2003
From: john at burroway.net (John Burroway)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
In-Reply-To: <7428c723bb.723bb7428c@columbus.rr.com>
References: <7428c723bb.723bb7428c@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3FD119E3.3050206@burroway.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:

|Mandrake for the newbie ease of use.

There is really nothing in Mandrake that is easier or more 
newbie-friendly than Fedora or SUSE. In fact, I think the big three are 
all more or less equivalent in that regard.

John Burroway
john@burroway.net
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mharrold at cas.org  Fri Dec  5 18:53:58 2003
From: mharrold at cas.org (Mike Harrold)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <1070676766.2936.16.camel@linux.local> from "Nick Comtois" at Dec
	05, 2003 06:12:46 PM
Message-ID: <200312052353.hB5NrwN29723@srv45.cas.org>

> 
> I wanted to make that point again about it all being personal
> preference. I bet that there is some webserver out there that churns out
> this page this much faster using this language than this other webserver
> running this... etc. etc. etc. I have found it interesting to hear
> Josh's views i really have and want to thank him for responding and
> provoking intelligent debate. Anyone else have any opinions? What does
> everyone else use in their development life?

I like Java, or rather I like what it tried to do and thus I use a lot of java
"style" in my C++ work. However, I dislike how it was implemented. I think the
language lacks in areas that are perhaps unimportant to most people, but very
important to me. And I detest EJBs, or at least every implementation I've seen
so far. Nice idea, horrible, horrible implementation from virtually every
Application Server out there.

But each to his own. That's what makes IT such fun. Remember innovation? That
thing that Micro$oft has tried desperately to take away from everyone?

Regards,

/Mike

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 19:55:02 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: nmblookup and iptables: which ports?
In-Reply-To: <1070582079.73ae2560bnmille@myrealbox.com>
References: <1070582079.73ae2560bnmille@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20031205195502.011cb5e7.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

Brian Miller <bnmille@myrealbox.com> wrote:

> ... ports 135 and 137... 
> ... --sport 135-137 ...

and I reinforced with: 

> ... --sport 135:137 ...

but shouldn't that be 137:139?  

From skippy at skippy.net  Fri Dec  5 20:36:58 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
Message-ID: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>

How many people are planning on attending the December meeting?

Are there any volunteers for a presentation?  Any requests for a 
presentation?

I'd eventually like someone to follow-up on Greg's October presentation 
on Postfix, specifically detailing SMTP + TLS.  Maybe we can share our 
recipies for mail sanitation (MTA rules, black- and white-lists, 
procmail recipies, spam filters, content filters, voodoo rituals).

I'd be happy to contribute to such a presentation, but I don't want to 
plan something in-depth for a post-holiday meeting that only a handful 
attend.

Other items I'd personally like to see presented:
* how to install and configure an IDS (intrusion detection system)
* system forensics
* how to exploit a remote vulnerability to gain root
    (all a propos after the recent high-profile breaches)
* how to install and configure mrtg to collect data and make neat graphs
* a newbie-friendly introduction to the 2.6 kernel
* how to advocate GNU/Linux to "regular" users

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 23:36:53 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
In-Reply-To: <3FD119E3.3050206@burroway.net>
References: <7428c723bb.723bb7428c@columbus.rr.com>
	 <3FD119E3.3050206@burroway.net>
Message-ID: <1070685413.3304.3.camel@linux.local>

I certainly agree. I personally think SUSE was the easiest then mandrake
and then fedora. All were very close. Ease of use is the flag mandrake
is waving. I think the multitude of distro's is one of the things that
make linux so unique that flexibility. However maybe if some projects
could pool resources we would have even greater and more well thought
out distro's? RedHat and the fedora project merged and i am expecting to
see great things from them in the future.

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 15:50, John Burroway wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> 
> |Mandrake for the newbie ease of use.
> 
> There is really nothing in Mandrake that is easier or more 
> newbie-friendly than Fedora or SUSE. In fact, I think the big three are 
> all more or less equivalent in that regard.
> 
> John Burroway
> john@burroway.net
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iD8DBQE/0RnilPT8Jbg2NqYRAo9MAKCXNnFdMvYmJh2M1B+j/nf02vRQSwCaA6A9
> iHlH341LDJMuB+QEahVmPpM=
> =Lrlw
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec  5 23:51:47 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <1070686306.3304.16.camel@linux.local>

A nice in depth discussion of how to advocate linux would be nice.
Things like which distro to push, why the average user should change if
at all, is linux ready for the mainstream? etc. As long as it is not the
december meeting I will talk for the side against trying to advocate
linux to joe average.  


On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 17:36, Scott Merrill wrote:
> How many people are planning on attending the December meeting?
> 
> Are there any volunteers for a presentation?  Any requests for a 
> presentation?
> 
> I'd eventually like someone to follow-up on Greg's October presentation 
> on Postfix, specifically detailing SMTP + TLS.  Maybe we can share our 
> recipies for mail sanitation (MTA rules, black- and white-lists, 
> procmail recipies, spam filters, content filters, voodoo rituals).
> 
> I'd be happy to contribute to such a presentation, but I don't want to 
> plan something in-depth for a post-holiday meeting that only a handful 
> attend.
> 
> Other items I'd personally like to see presented:
> * how to install and configure an IDS (intrusion detection system)
> * system forensics
> * how to exploit a remote vulnerability to gain root
>     (all a propos after the recent high-profile breaches)
> * how to install and configure mrtg to collect data and make neat graphs
> * a newbie-friendly introduction to the 2.6 kernel
> * how to advocate GNU/Linux to "regular" users
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From beano21 at direcway.com  Fri Dec  5 20:57:07 2003
From: beano21 at direcway.com (Frank Rieder)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <1070675827.2238.3.camel@localhost>

I will be attending, no matter what is on topic.
On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 20:36, Scott Merrill wrote:
> How many people are planning on attending the December meeting?
> 
> Are there any volunteers for a presentation?  Any requests for a 
> presentation?
> 
> I'd eventually like someone to follow-up on Greg's October presentation 
> on Postfix, specifically detailing SMTP + TLS.  Maybe we can share our 
> recipies for mail sanitation (MTA rules, black- and white-lists, 
> procmail recipies, spam filters, content filters, voodoo rituals).
> 
> I'd be happy to contribute to such a presentation, but I don't want to 
> plan something in-depth for a post-holiday meeting that only a handful 
> attend.
> 
> Other items I'd personally like to see presented:
> * how to install and configure an IDS (intrusion detection system)
> * system forensics
> * how to exploit a remote vulnerability to gain root
>     (all a propos after the recent high-profile breaches)
> * how to install and configure mrtg to collect data and make neat graphs
> * a newbie-friendly introduction to the 2.6 kernel
> * how to advocate GNU/Linux to "regular" users
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From gate at ilive4code.net  Fri Dec  5 23:30:36 2003
From: gate at ilive4code.net (Greg Sidelinger)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <200312052330.36774.gate@ilive4code.net>

I would like to see some stuff on LDAP.  Been meaning to learn it for the 
longest time but just have not gotten around too it.  And it is holding me up 
on another project so if someone did a presenation on it I may have to get my 
butt in gear. But other than that I would also love to see something on an 
IDC (snort ...) and system forensics.

Greg

On Friday 05 December 2003 08:36 pm, Scott Merrill wrote:
> How many people are planning on attending the December meeting?
>
> Are there any volunteers for a presentation?  Any requests for a
> presentation?
>
> I'd eventually like someone to follow-up on Greg's October presentation
> on Postfix, specifically detailing SMTP + TLS.  Maybe we can share our
> recipies for mail sanitation (MTA rules, black- and white-lists,
> procmail recipies, spam filters, content filters, voodoo rituals).
>
> I'd be happy to contribute to such a presentation, but I don't want to
> plan something in-depth for a post-holiday meeting that only a handful
> attend.
>
> Other items I'd personally like to see presented:
> * how to install and configure an IDS (intrusion detection system)
> * system forensics
> * how to exploit a remote vulnerability to gain root
>     (all a propos after the recent high-profile breaches)
> * how to install and configure mrtg to collect data and make neat graphs
> * a newbie-friendly introduction to the 2.6 kernel
> * how to advocate GNU/Linux to "regular" users
>
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From jim at rossberry.com  Fri Dec  5 23:52:47 2003
From: jim at rossberry.com (Jim Wildman)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
In-Reply-To: <20031205223345.67767.qmail@web14524.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312052348430.29045-100000@newross.rossberry.private>

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Kurt Moeller wrote:
> 
> --- manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> >>I am going to 
> have to use something other than what comes with cAos
> to repartition my 
> disk so I don't have to remove slack on my test
> machine.<<
> 
> So, did it want to blow away everything on there?  I
> know they suggest using fdisk to change partitions,
> but if you can use another tool, it would probably be
> easier.  I was going to ask this question on IRC or
> the cAos mail list, since I have a dual boot system I
> want to keep.  I have Win 2K and RH8, and I want to
> put cAos on the existing Linux partition.  

The cAos project and particularly its installer is Alpha, maybe early
Beta at best.  It is not designed to be used for dual boot systems.  It
is being developed by people with large clusters of identical machines
(100's and 1000's) who want to keep running stable, tested servers with
essentially the same software they've had in the RH7.x series.  Dual
booting is not very high on the list of feature requirements.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE                                jim@rossberry.com
http://www.rossberry.com

From bob at disclosed.org  Sat Dec  6 00:55:17 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:54 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <200312060055.17495.bob@disclosed.org>

On Friday 05 December 2003 20:36, Scott Merrill wrote:
> * system forensics

I'd be really interested in learning about intrusion detection and system 
forensics.  Probably due to my overparanoid nature, but also because there 
have been a number of highprofile(ish) intrusions lately (namely the debian 
servers, and more close to home, one of the gentoo rsync servers(an 
unofficial one, donated bandwidth server))...  

Bob
From lshurr at columbus.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 01:08:19 2003
From: lshurr at columbus.rr.com (Larry A. Shurr)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] /etc/java/java2.conf (was Unexpected Mozilla error in
 Suse 9.0	(gtk))
In-Reply-To: <3FCE631C.1080408@columbus.rr.com>
References: 
	<OF6A08DBE1.EA70AFB2-ON85256DF0.0059FE02-85256DF0.005C8887@checkfree.com>
	<3FCE631C.1080408@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3FD17253.2040702@columbus.rr.com>

Larry A. Shurr wrote:

> WKehr@checkfree.com wrote:
> 
>>
>> Larry wrote that he installed the free Susu 9.0.  In discussing the 
>> /etc/java/java2.conf file he stated:
>>
>>  >   I'll provide mine if you're interested.
>>
>> Thanks Larry, I'll take one.
> 
> 
> O.K., it's appended to the end of this note.  It's about 2.5K, mostly 
> commentary on how to install and set up Java.  

Whoops!  Wouldn't you know that I'd make a small but important mistake 
in the file?  See the attached for a corrected version.  The settings 
are interpreted slightly differently if 'Devel' is set to 'True'.  Also, 
the .rpm installation of Sun's Java SDK does *not* set 
/usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2, so you must do it yourself.  Sorry for the 
mistakes.  What else? Let's see.  The current Java SDK is 1.4.2_02 
instead of 1.4.2_20... doh!

Oh, yeah.  You can use the Java SDK that comes with the Netbeans package 
if you want, but its location is different, so you have to create the 
symbolic link for JAVA_LINK to point to a different location.  Not too 
hard for a hacker, but write if you need help.

Larry
-- 
Larry A. Shurr (lshurr@columbus.rr.com)
-----snip-------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip-----
# This is a configuration for the JDK 1.4.2 from Sun Microsystems.
# It's based on a sample configuration file embedded in the file
# /etc/java/README which is part of the SuSE base distribution and
# contains the following header:
#
#   "this is configutation [sic] file for JRE from Sun Microsystems,
#   version 1.3.1 it is installed in /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.3.1"
#
# However, the free, network installation version of SuSE Linux 9.0
# *does not* provide either a JRE or JDK and the Sun version of Java
# for Linux does not, as far as I can tell, support the Java .conf
# feature used by SuSE. It is, however, easy to create a .conf file
# for Sun-supplied Java packages:
#
# 1) Install the RPM package for X86 Linux Java JDK version
#    1.4.2<something> from Sun.  This should result in Java being
#    installed in the directory /usr/java/j2sdk1.4.2<something>.
#    Note that these instructions apply specifically to the JDK.
#    If, for some reason, you prefer to use a JRE, the differences
#    are straightforward.  See the file /etc/java/README for an
#    example of a JRE-only .conf file.
#
# 2) Create a symbolic link as follows:
#
#    ln -s ../java/j2sdk1.4.2<something> /etc/lib/<JAVA_LINK value>
#
#    where <JAVA_LINK value> is the string value of the JAVA_LINK
#    setting defined in the java .conf file.  View the last line of
#    this file where you'll see that JAVA_LINK is set to
#    'SunJava2-1.4.2'.  You may find that the Java installation
#    creates a suitable link for you, but check to make sure.
#
# For example, I installed JDK 1.4.2_02.  The installation directory
# is /usr/java/j2sdk1.4.2_02.  Therefore, the link command was:
#
# ln -s ../java/j2sdk1.4.2_02 /etc/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
#
# Please note that I do not represent SuSE and in no way guarantee
# this method of installing Java on a network-installed SuSE Linux.
# It appears to work fine, but if you need a guarantee, you should
# buy an official SuSE distribution.
#
# View the file /etc/java/README for insight into Java .conf files.

Priority : 30

Vendor   : Sun
Version  : 1.4.2
Devel    : True

JAVA_BINDIR = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2/bin
JAVA_ROOT   = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
JAVA_HOME   = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
JRE_HOME    = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
JDK_HOME    = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2
SDK_HOME    = /usr/lib/SunJava2-1.4.2

JAVA_LINK   = SunJava2-1.4.2
-----snip-------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip------snip-----

From bnmille at myrealbox.com  Fri Dec  5 23:44:49 2003
From: bnmille at myrealbox.com (Brian Miller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re:  FAT File system write problems
In-Reply-To: <200312050044.hB50iN8t030253@stones.wcbe.org>
References: <200312050044.hB50iN8t030253@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <200312052344.50004.bnmille@myrealbox.com>

On Thursday 04 December 2003 
> From: "Sundaram Ramasamy" <sun@percipia.com> wrote:
> Redhat 9.0 Linux I am mounting FAT Fileystem like this.
>
> /dev/hdd1               /data                   vfat     defaults  
>     0 0
>
> As a root user I was able to create/delete a file. With other user
> I was not able to create a file it giving Permission denied error
> message.

Another option is to modify the 4th column of your fstab file to read 
noauto,users.  That will prevent the system from mounting it at boot, 
but will allow any user to mount the file system later.  The user 
that mounts the filesystem will be able to write, delete, etc.  
Because of the way Unix file systems and FAT "interact", the best
 you are going to get is to allow 1 user at a time to make file 
modifications on a FAT file system.

From rfunk at funknet.net  Sat Dec  6 03:11:40 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re:  FAT File system write problems
In-Reply-To: <200312052344.50004.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
References: <200312050044.hB50iN8t030253@stones.wcbe.org>
	<200312052344.50004.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <200312060311.40816.rfunk@funknet.net>

Brian Miller wrote:
> Because of the way Unix file systems and FAT "interact", the best
> ?you are going to get is to allow 1 user at a time to make file
> modifications on a FAT file system.

That's not quite true.  You can set options on the filesystem to allow 
everyone on the system, or everyone in a particular group, to write to the 
filesystem.  I believe the umask=0 option would allow anyone to write, and 
umask=002, along with gid=42, would give member of group number 42 write 
access.  See the mount man page for details.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"


From mrkurt426 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 08:09:10 2003
From: mrkurt426 at yahoo.com (Kurt Moeller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312052348430.29045-100000@newross.rossberry.private>
Message-ID: <20031206130910.89175.qmail@web14521.mail.yahoo.com>

Since it's in alpha version, I think I am going to try
it on another machine that would not be a dual boot,
before attempting an install on the dual boot.  In my
case, the dual boot install is a laptop which I use
for presentation on both OS's. --K.
  
--- Jim Wildman <jim@rossberry.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Kurt Moeller wrote:
> > 
> > --- manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > >>I am going to 
> > have to use something other than what comes with
> cAos
> > to repartition my 
> > disk so I don't have to remove slack on my test
> > machine.<<
> > 
> > So, did it want to blow away everything on there? 
> I
> > know they suggest using fdisk to change
> partitions,
> > but if you can use another tool, it would probably
> be
> > easier.  I was going to ask this question on IRC
> or
> > the cAos mail list, since I have a dual boot
> system I
> > want to keep.  I have Win 2K and RH8, and I want
> to
> > put cAos on the existing Linux partition.  
> 
> The cAos project and particularly its installer is
> Alpha, maybe early
> Beta at best.  It is not designed to be used for
> dual boot systems.  It
> is being developed by people with large clusters of
> identical machines
> (100's and 1000's) who want to keep running stable,
> tested servers with
> essentially the same software they've had in the
> RH7.x series.  Dual
> booting is not very high on the list of feature
> requirements.
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Wildman, CISSP, RHCE                            
>    jim@rossberry.com
> http://www.rossberry.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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From john at burroway.net  Sat Dec  6 08:14:01 2003
From: john at burroway.net (John Burroway)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200312052330.36774.gate@ilive4code.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
	<200312052330.36774.gate@ilive4code.net>
Message-ID: <3FD1D619.4020704@burroway.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg Sidelinger wrote:

|I would like to see some stuff on LDAP.  Been meaning to learn it for the
|longest time but just have not gotten around too it.  And it is holding 
me up
|on another project so if someone did a presenation on it I may have to 
get my
|butt in gear.

I second that. I've managed to put together a small email directory on 
my email server, but I'd like to see something a little more in depth.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQE/0dYYlPT8Jbg2NqYRAs3uAJ0WSaG5k0dJ+lOFyvp5LyhMRnaQSgCdGG+v
G196CXGfgg46v1jZf2qXN8g=
=g3r8
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From colug at the-testas.net  Sat Dec  6 08:31:16 2003
From: colug at the-testas.net (Joe Testa)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] dvd burning continued
Message-ID: <3FD1DA24.6000105@the-testas.net>

ok got successful backup of my southpark season 1 dvd set.  so i thought 
i'd try one of the kid's DVD, specifically "piglet's big movie", so i 
get it ripped just fine to HD, convert to .img and lo and behold its too 
big to fit back on a dvd disk(this is all on the dvd+ world, if that 
matters).

-rw-r--r--    1 root     root     4952293376 Dec  3 22:10 
piglets_big_movie.img

So how did they put like 4.9G on a dvd, overburning?  regardless I can't 
get growisofs to handle it, any ideas would be appreciated.

thanks, joe

From bnmille at myrealbox.com  Sat Dec  6 08:54:49 2003
From: bnmille at myrealbox.com (Brian Miller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] 
	Re: nmblookup/iptables AND December meeting AND FAT file permissions
In-Reply-To: <200312060813.hB68De8t026590@stones.wcbe.org>
References: <200312060813.hB68De8t026590@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <200312060854.49458.bnmille@myrealbox.com>

On Saturday 06 December 2003 03:13, colug-request@colug.net wrote:

> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:55:02 -0500
> From: Jim P <jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] Re: nmblookup and iptables: which ports?
> To: Central OH Trojan Rabbit User Group <colug@colug.net>
> Message-ID: <20031205195502.011cb5e7.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Brian Miller <bnmille@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> > ... ports 135 and 137...
> > ... --sport 135-137 ...
>
> and I reinforced with:
> > ... --sport 135:137 ...
>
> but shouldn't that be 137:139?
>
Yes, you're correct.  Minor syntax error.  I've been working recently 
with the FreeBSD firewall, and it uses the "-" option to define a 
range of ports.  Why can't these people get together and agree on ONE  
syntax for all common issues?  

Scott Merrill asked:
>How many people are planning on attending the December meeting?
>
>Are there any volunteers for a presentation? ?Any requests for a 
>presentation?

I could volunteer to talk at the December meeting about Novell's Linux 
services.  We've been beta testing their newest product (scheduled 
for release early next year).  Since they're moving into the Linux 
space in a fairly major way, some people might find that interesting.  
My discussion would probably wander into the area of directory 
services (maybe even a little LDAP) though.

and finally, Rob Funk wrote:
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] Re:  FAT File system write problems
> Brian Miller wrote:
> > Because of the way Unix file systems and FAT "interact", the best
> > ?you are going to get is to allow 1 user at a time to make file
> > modifications on a FAT file system.
>
> That's not quite true.  You can set options on the filesystem to
> allow everyone on the system, or everyone in a particular group, to
> write to the filesystem.  I believe the umask=0 option would allow
> anyone to write, and umask=002, along with gid=42, would give
> member of group number 42 write access.  See the mount man page for
> details.
I won't argue with this, but the use of "users' in the fourth field 
was the first way I found to get write permissions (back around RH 
7.2 or 7.3).  Since it worked for me (I was the only one needing 
access), I didn't worry about getting other people access.  I will 
say that changing the file permissions on the mount point to 777 did 
not work.



From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 09:57:30 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: nmblookup/iptables: range is issue, not syntax
In-Reply-To: <200312060854.49458.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
References: <200312060813.hB68De8t026590@stones.wcbe.org>
	<200312060854.49458.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20031206095730.78714827.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 08:54:49 -0500 Brian Miller <bnmille@myrealbox.com> wrote:

> [Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:55:02 -0500 Jim P <jep200305@columbus.rr.com>] wrote: 
> >
> > Brian Miller <bnmille@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> > > ... ports 135 and 137...
> > > ... --sport 135-137 ...
> >
> > and I reinforced with:
> > > ... --sport 135:137 ...
> >
> > but shouldn't that be 137:139?
> >
> Yes, you're correct.  Minor syntax error.  
> [discussion of ':' versus '-' for Linux versus BSD]

In my last letter, the point was about range 
although syntax was reviewed.   

When I wrote "--sport 135:137", my point was syntax.  
When I wrote "137:139?", my point was range, not syntax.  

What is the correct range?  

Jim

From skippy at skippy.net  Sat Dec  6 10:24:04 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: nmblookup/iptables: range is issue, not syntax
In-Reply-To: <20031206095730.78714827.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
References: <200312060813.hB68De8t026590@stones.wcbe.org>
	<200312060854.49458.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
	<20031206095730.78714827.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3FD1F494.3020206@skippy.net>

Jim P wrote:
  > When I wrote "--sport 135:137", my point was syntax.
> When I wrote "137:139?", my point was range, not syntax.  
> 
> What is the correct range?  

skippy@skippy:~$ grep 135 /etc/services
lotusnote       1352/tcp        lotusnotes      # Lotus Note
lotusnote       1352/udp        lotusnotes      # Lotus Note
skippy@skippy:~$ grep 137 /etc/services
netbios-ns      137/tcp                         # NETBIOS Name Service
netbios-ns      137/udp
skippy@skippy:~$ grep 138 /etc/services
netbios-dgm     138/tcp                         # NETBIOS Datagram Service
netbios-dgm     138/udp
skippy@skippy:~$ grep 139 /etc/services
netbios-ssn     139/tcp                         # NETBIOS session service
netbios-ssn     139/udp

Looks like 137:139 is what you want.

From blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu  Sat Dec  6 10:35:30 2003
From: blata at extent0006.entomology.ohio-state.edu (Wade Pinkston)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re:  FAT File system write problems
In-Reply-To: <200312060311.40816.rfunk@funknet.net>
References: <200312050044.hB50iN8t030253@stones.wcbe.org>
	<200312052344.50004.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
	<200312060311.40816.rfunk@funknet.net>
Message-ID: <3FD1F742.5050509@bugs.osu.edu>

WOW well this makes it all so clear now theres no problem understanding 
umask now.  :-D (please excuse the dripping sarcasm)

       umask=value
              Set the umask (the bitmask  of  the  permissions  that  
are  not
              present).  The default is the umask of the current 
process.  The
              value is given in octal.

Rob Funk wrote:

>Brian Miller wrote:
>  
>
>>Because of the way Unix file systems and FAT "interact", the best
>> you are going to get is to allow 1 user at a time to make file
>>modifications on a FAT file system.
>>    
>>
>
>That's not quite true.  You can set options on the filesystem to allow 
>everyone on the system, or everyone in a particular group, to write to the 
>filesystem.  I believe the umask=0 option would allow anyone to write, and 
>umask=002, along with gid=42, would give member of group number 42 write 
>access.  See the mount man page for details.
>
>  
>

-- 
Wade Pinkston 
The Ohio State University 
Extension Entomology
1991 Kenny Rd 
Columbus OH 43210 
phone: (614) 292-5274 

Ipsa scientia potestas est 

Windows,a
32 bit graphical interface for a
16 bit patch to an
8 bit operating system internally coded for a
4 bit processor written by a
2 bit company that can't stand
1 bit of competition


From colug at jmglov.net  Sat Dec  6 10:48:13 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <20031206154813.GA31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Scott Merrill (Fri 2003-12-05 08:36:58PM -0500):

> How many people are planning on attending the December meeting?

I cannot make it, however...

> I'd eventually like someone to follow-up on Greg's October presentation 
> on Postfix, specifically detailing SMTP + TLS.  Maybe we can share our 
> recipies for mail sanitation (MTA rules, black- and white-lists, 
> procmail recipies, spam filters, content filters, voodoo rituals).

I can go over my system, which involves:

- Postfix
- SpamAssassin
- Procmail
- Mutt
- Courier IMAPd
- Squirrelmail
- Apache SSL

> * how to install and configure mrtg to collect data and make neat graphs

I have a Quick-N-Dirty Guide on this:

http://www.jmglov.net/unix/qnd/qnd-mrtg.txt

> * a newbie-friendly introduction to the 2.6 kernel

I can probably do this, as well. I am running 2.6 on a server and a desktop.

Keep in mind that I can do any of the above, but not at the December meeting.

Cheers,
Josh

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From skippy at skippy.net  Sat Dec  6 11:06:37 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re:  FAT File system write problems
In-Reply-To: <3FD1F742.5050509@bugs.osu.edu>
References: <200312050044.hB50iN8t030253@stones.wcbe.org>
	<200312052344.50004.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
	<200312060311.40816.rfunk@funknet.net> <3FD1F742.5050509@bugs.osu.edu>
Message-ID: <3FD1FE8D.4090102@skippy.net>

Wade Pinkston wrote:
> WOW well this makes it all so clear now theres no problem understanding 
> umask now.  :-D (please excuse the dripping sarcasm)
> 
>       umask=value
>              Set the umask (the bitmask  of  the  permissions  that  
> are  not
>              present).  The default is the umask of the current 
> process.  The
>              value is given in octal.

http://www.die.net/doc/linux/man/man2/umask.2.html

From skippy at skippy.net  Sat Dec  6 11:11:21 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20031206154813.GA31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
	<20031206154813.GA31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <3FD1FFA9.80104@skippy.net>

Josh Glover wrote:
> I can go over my system, which involves:
> 
> - Postfix
> - SpamAssassin
> - Procmail
> - Mutt
> - Courier IMAPd
> - Squirrelmail
> - Apache SSL

I use a similar configuration, although I use UW IMAP instead (I know, I 
know).  Do you use the TLS extensions to postfix?

>>* how to install and configure mrtg to collect data and make neat graphs
> 
> 
> I have a Quick-N-Dirty Guide on this:
> 
> http://www.jmglov.net/unix/qnd/qnd-mrtg.txt

Thanks!  After a quick review, I think I'd like someone to present SNMP 
more generally, and using mrtg to facilitate that.  At work I've a 3Com 
24-port switch, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to 
collect _aggregate_ data on the switch as a whole.  I could query and 
collect info only on individual ports, and the idea of concatentating 
all of that together seemed too prone to user error.

From colug at jmglov.net  Sat Dec  6 12:14:26 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <1070677046.2935.20.camel@linux.local>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
	<200312051812.51213.rfunk@funknet.net> <1070677046.2935.20.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031206171426.GB31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Fri 2003-12-05 06:17:27PM -0800):

> Ok fine a good C program is a valid C++ program, but is a good java
> program a valid perl script? They share a very close syntax especially
> for completely different languages.

Not sure what this has to do with anything, but I feel fairly certain that
a Java compiler would not know what to make of this:

++$foo > --$bar
  and $arr = \@{sort keys %$hash};

> Features wise pretty much anything C can do C++ can do,

The point is that the converse is not true. C cannot do, at least natively
(i.e. without massive invention of the OOP wheel), everything that C++ can
do.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From colug at jmglov.net  Sat Dec  6 12:19:48 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:55 2005
Subject: [COLUG] December Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3FD1FFA9.80104@skippy.net>
References: <3FD132BA.4030709@skippy.net>
	<20031206154813.GA31816%jmglov@jmglov.net> <3FD1FFA9.80104@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <20031206171948.GC31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Scott Merrill (Sat 2003-12-06 11:11:21AM -0500):

> I use a similar configuration, although I use UW IMAP instead (I know, I 
> know).  Do you use the TLS extensions to postfix?

No, as all mail that I send through my mailserver originates on the inside.
However, I did compile Postfix with SSL/TLS support, so I need to get TLS
set up soon.

> Thanks!  After a quick review, I think I'd like someone to present SNMP 
> more generally, and using mrtg to facilitate that.

I would also like to see a general presentation on SNMP.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From pat at linuxcolumbus.com  Sat Dec  6 13:23:26 2003
From: pat at linuxcolumbus.com (pat@linuxcolumbus.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <1271.24.123.50.150.1070660429.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
	<1271.24.123.50.150.1070660429.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <20031206182326.GA27929@linuxcolumbus.com>

On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:40:29PM -0500, Josh Glover wrote:
 
> I have a new chapter for the story: PHP4 is *not* the greatest thing since
> sliced bread. I admit that if you need to whip up a quick web application,
> especially one with a MySQL backend, PHP is the tool for the job. However,
> larger and more heavy-duty applications expose the fact that PHP is still an
> immature language, which an engine that breaks down under heavy stress.
>

Cough...BS...Cough  

> I think you will find, if you push PHP4 to the scalability breaking point,
> that point comes a lot earlier than it would with Apache + mod_perl, or
> Jakarta Tomcat.
> 

Be it PHP, Java, mod_perl, or .net, they all have scalability problems. If
the app is poorly designed.  See my pervious comment to the php doesn't
scale issue.  


> Search the archives, there was a big PHP discussion a few (four?) months back.
> 
 
And it proved that this is nothing but a "what's your favorite editor" type
debate. :)

Pat
From clharting at rocketmail.com  Sat Dec  6 16:51:54 2003
From: clharting at rocketmail.com (C.L. Harting)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SBC DSL Service
References: <oprznvkzv02jj05f@mail.jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <3FD24F7A.60402@rocketmail.com>

Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D. wrote:

> I am considering changing ISPs and am interested in comments regarding 
> SBC DSL service in Columbus.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
This is my second time around with DSL from the local phone company 
(when I subscribed previously, it was still Ameritech, now it is known 
as SBC Yahoo!).  No problems to report, the upload/download speeds are 
acceptable (and fairly consistent) and my Vonage service 
(http://www.vonage.com) still works well.  Hard to beat $26.95/month for 
a high speed Internet connection.  I also use a Linksys router, so PPPoE 
is not a problem.  I managed to get around using the modified SBC Yahoo! 
My Yahoo! page.
One suggestion, if you haven't installed DSL before -- put a DSL filter 
in the phone line at the point where it comes into the house.  I was 
able to install a single filter in my basement ahead of where the phone 
line branches out to various parts of the house.  It sure beats having a 
filter hanging off every telephone in the house...


From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Sat Dec  6 16:58:02 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
In-Reply-To: <3FD119E3.3050206@burroway.net>
References: <7428c723bb.723bb7428c@columbus.rr.com>
	 <3FD119E3.3050206@burroway.net>
Message-ID: <1070747882.3817.6.camel@linux.local>

Fedora, which I loaded up last week, has toomany issues, like the whole
MP3 thing.  And then there is DVD playback, XMMS configuration and a few
other things that are going to turn off a newbie.

I just installed SuSE 9.0 Pro and it's looking pretty good so far.  One
of the smaller things that always has me going for a while is a case of
"where did they put that application this time"?  Seems all
distributions always want to move or hide something I just got used to
in the last version. Like with this version of SuSE, I can't find 3ddiag
to check my NVidia card out.  I'll find it though.  Seems to be working
pretty well so far.  A few changes since 8.2, like a new default MP3
player.  I like XMMS.  I'm going to have to redo the default apps.  Same
goes for the new default browser.  I like Mozilla.

Simple stuff really but so far, I like it.  Now if I could only figure
out the issue with Chromium.  It starts, and shuts down after about 5
seconds.

Try SuSE for newbies that want to really have access to the underbelly
of the beast.  I like Mandrake and would like to have seen much better
out of Fedora.

I'm sticking with SuSE for now.  Hey, it even found my web camera and my
Wacom tablet.  I may not have to dual boot after all.

Sean McHenry

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 18:50, John Burroway wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> 
> |Mandrake for the newbie ease of use.
> 
> There is really nothing in Mandrake that is easier or more 
> newbie-friendly than Fedora or SUSE. In fact, I think the big three are 
> all more or less equivalent in that regard.
> 
> John Burroway
> john@burroway.net
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iD8DBQE/0RnilPT8Jbg2NqYRAo9MAKCXNnFdMvYmJh2M1B+j/nf02vRQSwCaA6A9
> iHlH341LDJMuB+QEahVmPpM=
> =Lrlw
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 21:36:47 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <20031206171426.GB31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
	 <200312051812.51213.rfunk@funknet.net>
	 <1070677046.2935.20.camel@linux.local>
	 <20031206171426.GB31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1070764606.3082.2.camel@linux.local>

On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 09:14, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Nick Comtois (Fri 2003-12-05 06:17:27PM -0800):
> 
> > Ok fine a good C program is a valid C++ program, but is a good java
> > program a valid perl script? They share a very close syntax especially
> > for completely different languages.
> 
> Not sure what this has to do with anything, but I feel fairly certain that
> a Java compiler would not know what to make of this:
> 
> ++$foo > --$bar
>   and $arr = \@{sort keys %$hash};
ya i read it after i sent it and i realized the wording might have been
confusing

what i mean to say is that C and C++ have relatively tons more in common
than other languages have in common with each other. eg perl and java or
C and php etc.
> 
> > Features wise pretty much anything C can do C++ can do,
> 
> The point is that the converse is not true. C cannot do, at least natively
> (i.e. without massive invention of the OOP wheel), everything that C++ can
> do.
That is why i sad that C++ can do whatever C can do. I didn't say "and
vice versa"

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 21:38:44 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <20031206182326.GA27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
References: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
	 <1271.24.123.50.150.1070660429.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	 <20031206182326.GA27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
Message-ID: <1070764724.3082.4.camel@linux.local>

On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 10:23, pat@linuxcolumbus.com wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:40:29PM -0500, Josh Glover wrote:
>  
> > I have a new chapter for the story: PHP4 is *not* the greatest thing since
> > sliced bread. I admit that if you need to whip up a quick web application,
> > especially one with a MySQL backend, PHP is the tool for the job. However,
> > larger and more heavy-duty applications expose the fact that PHP is still an
> > immature language, which an engine that breaks down under heavy stress.
> >
> 
> Cough...BS...Cough

Haha finally someone in the PHP camp with me.
>   
> 
> > I think you will find, if you push PHP4 to the scalability breaking point,
> > that point comes a lot earlier than it would with Apache + mod_perl, or
> > Jakarta Tomcat.
> > 
> 
> Be it PHP, Java, mod_perl, or .net, they all have scalability problems. If
> the app is poorly designed.  See my pervious comment to the php doesn't
> scale issue.  
> 
> 
> > Search the archives, there was a big PHP discussion a few (four?) months back.
> > 
>  
> And it proved that this is nothing but a "what's your favorite editor" type
> debate. :)
> 
> Pat
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Sat Dec  6 21:41:48 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cAos
In-Reply-To: <1070747882.3817.6.camel@linux.local>
References: <7428c723bb.723bb7428c@columbus.rr.com>
	<1070747882.3817.6.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1070764908.3082.8.camel@linux.local>

SUSE 9 (pro at least) is wonderful. It definitely fits the bill of
"everything for everyone" which is what RH/Fedora was going after. It
definitely is not a specialized server or secure distro but I hear some
people love it for server use, don't really understand that but whatever
floats your boat. Anyway ya i love it. 

On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 13:58, Sean McHenry wrote:
> Fedora, which I loaded up last week, has toomany issues, like the whole
> MP3 thing.  And then there is DVD playback, XMMS configuration and a few
> other things that are going to turn off a newbie.
> 
> I just installed SuSE 9.0 Pro and it's looking pretty good so far.  One
> of the smaller things that always has me going for a while is a case of
> "where did they put that application this time"?  Seems all
> distributions always want to move or hide something I just got used to
> in the last version. Like with this version of SuSE, I can't find 3ddiag
> to check my NVidia card out.  I'll find it though.  Seems to be working
> pretty well so far.  A few changes since 8.2, like a new default MP3
> player.  I like XMMS.  I'm going to have to redo the default apps.  Same
> goes for the new default browser.  I like Mozilla.
> 
> Simple stuff really but so far, I like it.  Now if I could only figure
> out the issue with Chromium.  It starts, and shuts down after about 5
> seconds.
> 
> Try SuSE for newbies that want to really have access to the underbelly
> of the beast.  I like Mandrake and would like to have seen much better
> out of Fedora.
> 
> I'm sticking with SuSE for now.  Hey, it even found my web camera and my
> Wacom tablet.  I may not have to dual boot after all.
> 
> Sean McHenry
> 
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 18:50, John Burroway wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> > 
> > |Mandrake for the newbie ease of use.
> > 
> > There is really nothing in Mandrake that is easier or more 
> > newbie-friendly than Fedora or SUSE. In fact, I think the big three are 
> > all more or less equivalent in that regard.
> > 
> > John Burroway
> > john@burroway.net
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> > 
> > iD8DBQE/0RnilPT8Jbg2NqYRAo9MAKCXNnFdMvYmJh2M1B+j/nf02vRQSwCaA6A9
> > iHlH341LDJMuB+QEahVmPpM=
> > =Lrlw
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From whooper at freeshell.org  Sat Dec  6 19:04:26 2003
From: whooper at freeshell.org (William Hooper)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] dvd burning continued 
In-Reply-To: <3FD1DA24.6000105@the-testas.net>
References: <3FD1DA24.6000105@the-testas.net>
Message-ID: <64739.69.68.37.57.1070755466.squirrel@69.68.37.57>


Joe Testa  said:
> So how did they put like 4.9G on a dvd, overburning?  regardless I can't
> get growisofs to handle it, any ideas would be appreciated.

Unlike pressed CDs and CD-Rs, pressed DVDs and recordable DVDs have
different capacities.  Most likely your example DVD is a Dual-Layer DVD.

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.3

-- 
William Hooper
From clharting at rocketmail.com  Sat Dec  6 19:07:42 2003
From: clharting at rocketmail.com (C.L. Harting)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3FD26F4E.7040208@rocketmail.com>

manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com wrote:

>Boredom and my zeal for killing script kiddies led me on a nice little adventure this evening. I had noticed several blatan attempts to "hack" my webserver. Think: "204.210.83.150 - - [04/Dec/2003:18:25:11 -0500] "GET /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 6638" Obviously this attempt was laughable, uhh well all considering I have never seen the /winnt/system32 directory on my slack box lol. So I just did a quick whois on the ip wholeheartedly expecting it to be a proxy, to my surprise it was a road runner address. A quick call to service and support got me the good 'ole security@rr.com. So I passed along the logs and am waiting for the response.  What do you think they will have to say?
>
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>
>  
>
Unless things at RR have changed dramatically since Feb. 2002 (when I 
cancelled my Insight/RR service), I wouldn't expect a response at all. 
 I wrote a nice long email to them in late 2001about how all these other 
RR-connected systems, infected with Code Red/Code Red II/Nimda, were 
probing my RR connection, in violation of a number of their "Acceptable 
Use" policies.  Never heard back from them.  Well, I discovered that 
they didn't even have the serial number/MAC address of my cable modem, 
thus confirming that RR would have a very hard time finding the 
compromised systems...  I don't think WOW Internet or SBC Yahoo! are any 
better in that regard, but I haven't spent much time monitoring my link 
since I left RR.  The router/firewall does its job very nicely.
It just occurred to me, however, that perhaps RR (or any 
cable/DSLprovider) could do something to weed out those systems -- 
couldn't they determine the MAC address of the cable modem attached to 
those machines and just deny the modem an IP address (when, say, the 
DHCP lease is up)?  Then, when the affected subscriber called to report 
an outage, the customer service rep could ask for the cable modem's MAC 
address, compare it to the 'black list' and inform the customer that 
their system appears to be compromised.  Perhaps the real question is -- 
if the ISP can do this, how then do you proceed?  RR certainly doesn't 
want to be in the business of cleaning its customers' machines, but I 
believe it owes all its customers some enforcement of the policies 
stated in the customer agreement.


From colug at jmglov.net  Sat Dec  6 19:38:54 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <20031206182326.GA27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
References: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
	<1271.24.123.50.150.1070660429.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	<20031206182326.GA27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
Message-ID: <20031207003854.GD31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth pat@linuxcolumbus.com (Sat 2003-12-06 01:23:26PM -0500):

> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:40:29PM -0500, Josh Glover wrote:
>  
> > I have a new chapter for the story: PHP4 is *not* the greatest thing since
> > sliced bread. I admit that if you need to whip up a quick web application,
> > especially one with a MySQL backend, PHP is the tool for the job. However,
> > larger and more heavy-duty applications expose the fact that PHP is still an
> > immature language, which an engine that breaks down under heavy stress.
> >
> 
> Cough...BS...Cough  

Cough...troll...Cough

> > I think you will find, if you push PHP4 to the scalability breaking point,
> > that point comes a lot earlier than it would with Apache + mod_perl, or
> > Jakarta Tomcat.
> 
> Be it PHP, Java, mod_perl, or .net, they all have scalability problems. If
> the app is poorly designed.  See my pervious comment to the php doesn't
> scale issue.

Application scalability is a completely separate issue. If the interpretor
itself has scalability issues, as PHP4 demonstrably does, then applications
have to kludge their way around those issues. That is quite a waste of coding
time.

> > Search the archives, there was a big PHP discussion a few (four?) months back.
>  
> And it proved that this is nothing but a "what's your favorite editor" type
> debate. :)

No, it proved that you are so in love with PHP that you are unwilling to admit
is has any problems. Which is a rather (as I pointed out previously in this
thread) dangerous attitude.

No-one says you cannot use PHP. No-one says that it does not have its strong
points. However, when a discussion pops up on a technical mailing list about
the technical merit of programming language X, do not expect me to fail to
point out any warts that said language may possess.

Denying that a language may have drawbacks is not only stupendously naive, it
does a disservice to your fellow list members.


-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From colug at jmglov.net  Sat Dec  6 19:42:39 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <1070764606.3082.2.camel@linux.local>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
	<200312051812.51213.rfunk@funknet.net> <1070677046.2935.20.camel@linux.local>
	<20031206171426.GB31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1070764606.3082.2.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031207004239.GF31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Sat 2003-12-06 06:36:47PM -0800):

> what i mean to say is that C and C++ have relatively tons more in common
> than other languages have in common with each other. eg perl and java or
> C and php etc.

I would argue that C and Java have as much in common as C and C++.

> That is why i sad that C++ can do whatever C can do. I didn't say "and
> vice versa"

Right, the "and vice versa" not holding is my basic argument for why
comparing C/C++ to another iterative language makes little sense. If you
want to say, C/C++ has clearer syntax than Lisp, I will not take issue
with what you are saying at all.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From blitz at post891.org  Sat Dec  6 21:36:23 2003
From: blitz at post891.org (Patrick Blitz)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <3FD26F4E.7040208@rocketmail.com>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com> 
	<3FD26F4E.7040208@rocketmail.com>
Message-ID: <1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz>

Am Son, 2003-12-07 um 01.07 schrieb C.L. Harting:
<snip>
> It just occurred to me, however, that perhaps RR (or any 
> cable/DSLprovider) could do something to weed out those systems -- 
> couldn't they determine the MAC address of the cable modem attached to 
> those machines and just deny the modem an IP address (when, say, the 
> DHCP lease is up)?  Then, when the affected subscriber called to report 
> an outage, the customer service rep could ask for the cable modem's MAC 
> address, compare it to the 'black list' and inform the customer that 
> their system appears to be compromised.  Perhaps the real question is -- 
> if the ISP can do this, how then do you proceed?  RR certainly doesn't 
> want to be in the business of cleaning its customers' machines, but I 
> believe it owes all its customers some enforcement of the policies 
> stated in the customer agreement.

actually, i think as a company, i would see a great possibiltie here...
when i would have denied access for some modem, and the customer would
call up and report the outage, i would just try to sell him a service
guy from a sister company, who would then clean up the system and
re-enable his net connection...
they would prob. get some good money out of this, and could advertise
with a like "great security" or maybe "good virus protection" or
something similar...
we (= the geeks :-) would get annoyed by that way to quickly, but the
average user would be atracted by that..
and it would maybe stop the spreading of viruses to some degree
(although a small one)

just my 2 (Euro) cents...

Patrick

> 
> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

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From bnmille at myrealbox.com  Sat Dec  6 20:54:39 2003
From: bnmille at myrealbox.com (Brian Miller)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: nmblookup and iptables
In-Reply-To: <200312061700.hB6H0N8t025830@stones.wcbe.org>
References: <200312061700.hB6H0N8t025830@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <200312062054.40157.bnmille@myrealbox.com>

Jim P. wrote:
>In my last letter, the point was about range 
>although syntax was reviewed. ? 

>When I wrote "--sport 135:137", my point was syntax. ?
>When I wrote "137:139?", my point was range, not syntax. ?

>What is the correct range? ?

I guess I missed that slight change.  When I do netstat -aun on my 
Samba server only ports 137 and 138 show up as "listening", but 
somewhere in the back of my mind I remember a 3 port range spread, so 
it is probably 137:137.  You could also implement a rule in front of 
the -j ACCEPT rule that logs the packets.  That will tell you exactly 
what ports are being used.


From pat at linuxcolumbus.com  Sun Dec  7 09:48:12 2003
From: pat at linuxcolumbus.com (pat@linuxcolumbus.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <20031207003854.GD31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
	<1271.24.123.50.150.1070660429.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	<20031206182326.GA27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
	<20031207003854.GD31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <20031207144812.GB27929@linuxcolumbus.com>

On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 07:38:54PM -0500, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth pat@linuxcolumbus.com (Sat 2003-12-06 01:23:26PM -0500):
> 
> > On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:40:29PM -0500, Josh Glover wrote:
> >  
> > > I have a new chapter for the story: PHP4 is *not* the greatest thing since
> > > sliced bread. I admit that if you need to whip up a quick web application,
> > > especially one with a MySQL backend, PHP is the tool for the job. However,
> > > larger and more heavy-duty applications expose the fact that PHP is still an
> > > immature language, which an engine that breaks down under heavy stress.
> > >
> > 
> > Cough...BS...Cough  
> 
> Cough...troll...Cough
>

Whatever dude.


> > > I think you will find, if you push PHP4 to the scalability breaking point,
> > > that point comes a lot earlier than it would with Apache + mod_perl, or
> > > Jakarta Tomcat.
> > 
> > Be it PHP, Java, mod_perl, or .net, they all have scalability problems. If
> > the app is poorly designed.  See my pervious comment to the php doesn't
> > scale issue.
> 
> Application scalability is a completely separate issue. If the interpretor
> itself has scalability issues, as PHP4 demonstrably does, then applications
> have to kludge their way around those issues. That is quite a waste of coding
> time.
> 

Then demonstrate it.  I want to see you publish something that says the php
interpretor has scalability issues and what those are.  Until then you
opinion is nothing but FUD.


> > > Search the archives, there was a big PHP discussion a few (four?) months back.
> >  
> > And it proved that this is nothing but a "what's your favorite editor" type
> > debate. :)
> 
> No, it proved that you are so in love with PHP that you are unwilling to admit
> is has any problems. Which is a rather (as I pointed out previously in this
> thread) dangerous attitude.
> 

I didn't say it didn't have problems.  Stop putting words in my mouth.  Why
would yahoo choose php over their home-brew stuff.  Your not making any
sense.


> No-one says you cannot use PHP. No-one says that it does not have its strong
> points. However, when a discussion pops up on a technical mailing list about
> the technical merit of programming language X, do not expect me to fail to
> point out any warts that said language may possess.
> 

You didn't point out warts.  Where is the list of technical points?  I
see nothing from you.  Where are the WMD?


> Denying that a language may have drawbacks is not only stupendously naive, it
> does a disservice to your fellow list members.
> 

You are putting words in my mouth.  I never said any such thing.  

This is my final post on this until you respond with actual proof of php's
lack of scalability.


Pat

P.S.  I worked on a fairly big php site.  It went from nothing to over 4+
million pages a month (maybe more now). http://www.eham.net  `


From blitz at post891.org  Sun Dec  7 09:58:32 2003
From: blitz at post891.org (Patrick Blitz)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:56 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <20031207144812.GB27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
References: <725166fb01.6fb0172516@columbus.rr.com>
	<1271.24.123.50.150.1070660429.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	<20031206182326.GA27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
	<20031207003854.GD31816%jmglov@jmglov.net> 
	<20031207144812.GB27929@linuxcolumbus.com>
Message-ID: <1070809114.10346.35.camel@ra-blitz>

Am Son, 2003-12-07 um 15.48 schrieb pat@linuxcolumbus.com:

> I didn't say it didn't have problems.  Stop putting words in my mouth.  Why
> would yahoo choose php over their home-brew stuff.  Your not making any
> sense.
> 

Yahoo (at least Yahoo Europe) uses perl....


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From tutnkmn at prospectplace-dresden.com  Sun Dec  7 16:01:38 2003
From: tutnkmn at prospectplace-dresden.com (George Adams)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] konqueror and msn
Message-ID: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>

This is something I had not yet seen and seems to prove the pure evil of
MicroSoft.  I accessed my old MSN account ( a left over from the days of
my ignorance of Linux ) to send an e-mail with an attachment to a
friend.  Low and behold when I attempted to attach the jpg file I am
told that my Konqueror browser MUST be upgraded to MicroSoft Internet
Explorer 6.0 in order to make this happen - no options.  First, I did
not realize that MicroSoft could upgrade Konqueror to their pathetic
browser - LOL.  I guess using the third party MSN mailer is only allowed
for MS Windows users!  My Mozilla Browser did not have a problem
accessing the file attach nor did my old Netscape 4.71 on my old Corel
Linux PII machine - hmmmm.  Very odd that - guess you can run those
browsers in MS Windows huh?  

Just thought I would share this with the group.  Also, since switching
to Linux another e-mail problem has developed with Road Runner.  Any
outgoing e-mail from me to an RR member gets bounced back from rr
security. Since I run Mandrake I cannot see that I would be infected
with a Windows virus?!  Are they also a Microsoft shill attempting to
discourage the use of the better - ummmmm - I mean different (yeah
that's it different) system called Linux????? 

Linux lives and prospers.

George   

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec  7 16:12:48 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] konqueror and msn
In-Reply-To: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
References: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20031207161248.79b41412.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:01:38 -0500 George Adams <tutnkmn@prospectplace-dresden.com> wrote:

> I accessed my old MSN account ... to send an e-mail with an attachment to a
> friend.  Low and behold when I attempted to attach the jpg file I am
> told that my Konqueror browser MUST be upgraded to MicroSoft Internet
> Explorer 6.0 in order to make this happen

Experiment with Settings --> Configure Konqueror --> User Agent 

changing the user agent id to MSIE 6.0.  

From rfunk at funknet.net  Sun Dec  7 16:13:23 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] konqueror and msn
In-Reply-To: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
References: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <200312071613.23410.rfunk@funknet.net>

George Adams wrote:
> Low and behold when I attempted to attach the jpg file I am
> told that my Konqueror browser MUST be upgraded to MicroSoft Internet
> Explorer 6.0 in order to make this happen - no options.

Great thing about Konqueror is that you can easily tell it to lie about 
what browser it is, with "Change Browser Identification" on the Tools 
menu.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From skippy at skippy.net  Sun Dec  7 16:36:33 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] konqueror and msn
In-Reply-To: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
References: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <3FD39D61.5010105@skippy.net>

George Adams wrote:
> Just thought I would share this with the group.  Also, since switching
> to Linux another e-mail problem has developed with Road Runner.  Any
> outgoing e-mail from me to an RR member gets bounced back from rr
> security. Since I run Mandrake I cannot see that I would be infected
> with a Windows virus?!  Are they also a Microsoft shill attempting to
> discourage the use of the better - ummmmm - I mean different (yeah
> that's it different) system called Linux????? 

What does the bounce notification say?  Does it specifically say that 
your message was rejected because of a virus?

From baer at BaerSolutions.com  Sun Dec  7 16:37:07 2003
From: baer at BaerSolutions.com (baer@BaerSolutions.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] konqueror and msn
In-Reply-To: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
References: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <3053.192.168.1.1.1070833027.squirrel@mail.baersolutions.com>

>............ Also, since switching
> to Linux another e-mail problem has developed with Road Runner.  Any
> outgoing e-mail from me to an RR member gets bounced back from rr
> security. Since I run Mandrake I cannot see that I would be infected
> with a Windows virus?!  Are they also a Microsoft shill attempting to
> discourage the use of the better - ummmmm - I mean different (yeah
> that's it different) system called Linux?????


with out seeding the headers of the bounced e-mail, I'm reluctant to give
a solutions...  but is "sounds' like something I've just got done dealing
with, and I know e-mails to user@columbus.rr.com bounced.   If you sending
your own e-mail from mandrake(sendmail, qmail, posfix..) and not threw
RR's smtp server(smtp-server.insight.rr.com), you will run into some
problems,  but their easily fixed.

I can help.. but only for sendmail if that's what your running.
You'll need to add the following to your /etc/mail/mailertable:   (this is
where the file is located on RH 9.0, it may be in another location on your
box)

columbus.rr.com                             esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com
aol.com                                         
esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com
sbcglobal.net                                 
esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com
prodigy.net                                    
esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com

After you edit this file, you need to run make form  the /etc/mail directory.
This will modify /etc/mail/mailertable.db
I always restart the sendmail service, I'm not sure if it required or not

/etc/init.d/sendmail restart

Basically what this is doing, is if the e-mail that your sending is going
to one of the listed domains, it will forward the e-mail to your ISP's
e-mail server.

The reason you are getting bounced e-mail could be a couple different
reasons.  It may be because you are sending from a dynamic
address(dhcp).., an address allocated or broadband(I've only seen this
once)...  here is an example from returned e-mail headers(part)  from AOL

(reason: 554- (RTR:BB)  The IP address you are using to connect to AOL is
a dynamic)

I know this work..  and I believe it works as I have stated, but if not or
if I left something out hopefully someone it the group will correct me.

Hope this helps,

Scott

From baer at BaerSolutions.com  Sun Dec  7 16:45:23 2003
From: baer at BaerSolutions.com (baer@BaerSolutions.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] konqueror and msn
In-Reply-To: <3053.192.168.1.1.1070833027.squirrel@mail.baersolutions.com>
References: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
    <3053.192.168.1.1.1070833027.squirrel@mail.baersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <3102.192.168.1.1.1070833523.squirrel@mail.baersolutions.com>


> columbus.rr.com
> esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com
> aol.com
> esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com
> sbcglobal.net
> esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com
> prodigy.net
> esmtp:smtp-server.insight.rr.com

This didn't come out right..
The doamin the the smtp server need to be on same line:

$domain  esmtp:$yoursmtpserver

where $doamin, it the domain of the bounced e-mail
and $yoursmtpserver...well is your smpt server
From colug at jmglov.net  Sun Dec  7 19:27:27 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
Message-ID: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>

First of all, allow me to say that I have a decent bit of experience with
PHP4, and have found that experience to be a pleasure. PHP allows, with
its native OOP support, for extremely modular (i.e. good) applications
which in turn produces re-usable code.

I do feel, however, that PHP4, like many younger pieces of software, has
its share of drawbacks. One of the biggest is the lack of something like
CPAN--a highly organised, easy to access collection of "modules" or
"libraries" (whichever nomenclature you prefer), that can be easily plugged
into applications to save even more develment time. Another is performance.
To me, having to use single-quotes to avoid the penalty that PHP4's string
interpolation implementation encurs is, for lack of a better word, gross.
Note that Perl had this problem as well, but solved it somewhere around
5.0.

Another issue is PHP4's database support. It is actually great, and a joy
to work with--until your web application has to support multiple database
backends. The PHP library for accessing an Oracle database is different
enough from the MySQL library to make porting a PHP4 app to a different
database quite a chore. Contrast this to Perl's DBI/DBD library. (ADOdb
[1] is attempting to solve this issue, and is doing a decent job of it.)

And finally, the point that you have contested the most, is that I have
*seen* that PHP4 has some scalability issues, as described by Doug
Hawkins: http://www.colug.net/pipermail/colug/2003-July/008012.html

Note that the problems he ran into were with the engine itself. He ran
into an issue with the deserialiser not being able to deserialise chunks
that had been serialised with the same mechanism. When he investigated,
he found that the serialiser code and the deserialiser code were about
as different as night and day.

The above are examples of what I mean when I say that PHP4 has some
issues that should be considered before using it for serious application
development. If you can make PHP4 do what you want without any of these
being an issue, great.

PHP4 is the ideal tool for many web applications, I will admit readily.
But when someone makes the claim that PHP4 is the most scalable platform
for web applications, period, I feel the need to share the experiences
that my colleagues at INCOGEN and I ran into.

Ultimately, my goal is to educate, to get data out there so that Joe
Coder can make the most informed decision possible. My goal is not to
evangelise the usage of any one language.

I am sure that you can come up with a list of potential problems with
Perl, Java, or any other language commonly used for web applications,
and you are doing the community a service when you do so, in the context
of a discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of languages.

That is what I am trying to do here. Not defame PHP, and certainly not
defame you. Not even to win an argument with you, and I apologise for
my part in our argument. COLUG is a technical mailing list, and while it
is not uncommon for technical discussions to spiral into flaming, that is
never a good thing.

So from now on, I will try to keep my arguments technical and to keep my
temper on rather a shorter leash.

In closing, the reason I say PHP4 above instead of just PHP is that PHP5
looks like it addresses the technical issues that I have mentioned. Now
if only the PHP community can produce something like CPAN! (If there
exists a CPHPAN of which I am unaware, certainly feel free to point it
out.)

Apologetically yours,
Josh Glover

[1] http://php.weblogs.com/ADODB

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec  7 19:29:58 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] 
	Genuine IBM ribbon cartridge Reorder No 1040150 Free (as in beer)
Message-ID: <20031207192958.6a177aae.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

Genuine IBM ribbon cartridge Reorder No 1040150
free to any home, good, bad or indifferent

Contact me off of the list.  

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Mon Dec  8 01:07:14 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <20031207004239.GF31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <770ce74d27.74d27770ce@columbus.rr.com>
	 <200312051812.51213.rfunk@funknet.net>
	 <1070677046.2935.20.camel@linux.local>
	 <20031206171426.GB31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	 <1070764606.3082.2.camel@linux.local>
	 <20031207004239.GF31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1070863634.3114.1.camel@linux.local>

On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 16:42, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Nick Comtois (Sat 2003-12-06 06:36:47PM -0800):
> 
> > what i mean to say is that C and C++ have relatively tons more in common
> > than other languages have in common with each other. eg perl and java or
> > C and php etc.
> 
> I would argue that C and Java have as much in common as C and C++.
syntax wise yes. Any other way no. C and C++ are both compiled into
binary java isn't. Java is just a really customizable program when you
get down to it.
> 
> > That is why i sad that C++ can do whatever C can do. I didn't say "and
> > vice versa"
> 
> Right, the "and vice versa" not holding is my basic argument for why
> comparing C/C++ to another iterative language makes little sense. If you
> want to say, C/C++ has clearer syntax than Lisp, I will not take issue
> with what you are saying at all.

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Mon Dec  8 01:14:01 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
	 <3FD26F4E.7040208@rocketmail.com>  <1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz>
Message-ID: <1070864040.3114.8.camel@linux.local>

On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 18:36, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> Am Son, 2003-12-07 um 01.07 schrieb C.L. Harting:
> <snip>
> > It just occurred to me, however, that perhaps RR (or any 
> > cable/DSLprovider) could do something to weed out those systems -- 
> > couldn't they determine the MAC address of the cable modem attached to 
> > those machines and just deny the modem an IP address (when, say, the 
> > DHCP lease is up)?  Then, when the affected subscriber called to report 
> > an outage, the customer service rep could ask for the cable modem's MAC 
> > address, compare it to the 'black list' and inform the customer that 
> > their system appears to be compromised.  Perhaps the real question is -- 
> > if the ISP can do this, how then do you proceed?  RR certainly doesn't 
> > want to be in the business of cleaning its customers' machines, but I 
> > believe it owes all its customers some enforcement of the policies 
> > stated in the customer agreement.
> 
> actually, i think as a company, i would see a great possibiltie here...
> when i would have denied access for some modem, and the customer would
> call up and report the outage, i would just try to sell him a service
> guy from a sister company, who would then clean up the system and
> re-enable his net connection...
> they would prob. get some good money out of this, and could advertise
> with a like "great security" or maybe "good virus protection" or
> something similar...
> we (= the geeks :-) would get annoyed by that way to quickly, but the
> average user would be atracted by that..
> and it would maybe stop the spreading of viruses to some degree
> (although a small one)
> 
> just my 2 (Euro) cents...
> 
> Patrick
Customers don't really appreciate anything they only notice when things
don't work. I don't know of anyone who has blamed the ISP for a virus
they recieved, however if an ISP makes a claim that they can stop that
they make it their responsibility therefore people will be angry with
them when they get a virus. Since customers only notice the service when
it's not working that will add a whole lot of bad reviews to the company
i imagine a tech support call using that system go something like this:

Customer: "Why the **** can't i get on the internet??????????!!!!" 

Sales Rep: We discovered you had a virus so we deni......." 

Customer: "You did whaaaaat????? It worked just FINE!!!" 

Sales Rep: "sir we can put you in contact with {insert company name
here} who will fix your computer for a fee" 

Customer: "I pay for your internet service which you deny to me and now
you want me to shell out more money just to get something i was already
paying for?"
> 
> > 
> > 
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Mon Dec  8 01:18:38 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] konqueror and msn
In-Reply-To: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
References: <1070830898.3168.20.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1070864317.3114.10.camel@linux.local>

do you have port 25 open? If so RR will deny you access assuming that
you are acting as a gateway for spamers.

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 13:01, George Adams wrote:
> This is something I had not yet seen and seems to prove the pure evil of
> MicroSoft.  I accessed my old MSN account ( a left over from the days of
> my ignorance of Linux ) to send an e-mail with an attachment to a
> friend.  Low and behold when I attempted to attach the jpg file I am
> told that my Konqueror browser MUST be upgraded to MicroSoft Internet
> Explorer 6.0 in order to make this happen - no options.  First, I did
> not realize that MicroSoft could upgrade Konqueror to their pathetic
> browser - LOL.  I guess using the third party MSN mailer is only allowed
> for MS Windows users!  My Mozilla Browser did not have a problem
> accessing the file attach nor did my old Netscape 4.71 on my old Corel
> Linux PII machine - hmmmm.  Very odd that - guess you can run those
> browsers in MS Windows huh?  
> 
> Just thought I would share this with the group.  Also, since switching
> to Linux another e-mail problem has developed with Road Runner.  Any
> outgoing e-mail from me to an RR member gets bounced back from rr
> security. Since I run Mandrake I cannot see that I would be infected
> with a Windows virus?!  Are they also a Microsoft shill attempting to
> discourage the use of the better - ummmmm - I mean different (yeah
> that's it different) system called Linux????? 
> 
> Linux lives and prospers.
> 
> George   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From bob at disclosed.org  Mon Dec  8 00:17:17 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <200312080017.17618.bob@disclosed.org>

On Sunday 07 December 2003 19:27, Josh Glover wrote:
> if only the PHP community can produce something like CPAN! (If there
> exists a CPHPAN of which I am unaware, certainly feel free to point it
> out.)

It's not an exact "archive network" like CPAN or CTAN, but PHP's PEAR[1] has 
been a mildly useful tool for me, and I hope to see if flourish.  
Unfortunately, It's still rather small, when compared to CPAN.  I think this 
is largely due to a lack of support caused by its young age.  I'm not sure on 
the specifics, but PEAR capabilities did not come with PHP until version 4.2 
or 4.3.  

1: http://pear.php.net

An excerpt from the PEAR manual: 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What is PEAR?

PEAR is short for "PHP Extension and Application Repository" and is 		
pronounced just like the fruit. The purpose of PEAR is to provide: 

A structured library of open-sourced code for PHP users 
A system for code distribution and package maintenance 
A standard style for code written in PHP, specified here[2]
The PHP Foundation Classes (PFC), see more below[3]
The PHP Extension Community Library (PECL), see more below[4]
A web site, mailing lists and download mirrors to support the PHP/PEAR 
community 

PEAR is a community-driven project with the PEAR Group [5] as the governing 
body. The project has been founded by Stig S. Bakken in 1999 and quite a lot 
of people[6] have joined the project since then. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

2: http://pear.php.net/manual/en/standards.php
3: http://pear.php.net/manual/en/introduction.php#about-pfc
4: http://pear.php.net/manual/en/introduction.php#about-pecl
5: http://pear.php.net/group/
6: http://pear.php.net/accounts.php


I've used it for database abstraction and to incorporate BBCode in a weblog 
software that I maintain and develop.  I plan on using PEAR packages for 
caching, and for benchmarking while i play with caching.  

Anyway,
Bob
From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Mon Dec  8 05:14:52 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1070878492.3114.138.camel@linux.local>

I never took what anyone said in this as argumentative more "passionate
debate" which I think is good. It makes people more motivated to bring
out all of the points in that particular discussion, lest they look like
fools as i did in certain parts i will admit. So as we continue this
debate i would like to dive into something interesting that you brought
up. 

PERL has CPAN, C/C++ Have endless libraries for everything imaginable
and Java like php have everything built in. 

PHP is unique yet is all the same when it comes to having some sort of
standard library. It has the stuff that comes with it and is listed in
the beloved(at least by me) function reference on their site. However it
also supports add-ons in the form of C style includes of other php files
or as hardcoded compiled add-ons (i assume there is some sort of
extended documentation on coding for the zend engine etc.) 

For now and the foreseeable future I will use perl for all of my
scripting, that is accept for web stuff. I.E. system scripts that aren't
easily handled with shell scripts, scripting plugins for other apps like
xchat etc. etc. etc. 

To be honest the built in functions are perfect for the web (for
everything i have ever needed at least) What you mentioned about
databases i appreciate lots, databases fascinate me.

I began my experience with php in windows (don't knock that php is what
motivated me to come over to OpenSource and ultimately linux) php
coupled with ODBC was a cinch to put together and obviously you could
change backends with near no recoding. This like nearly all of
microsofts little innovations made a sort of ridiculous sacrifice. That
is of performance. I would hope that you would stick with one backend
long enough to reap the benefits of coding for that particular rdbms.
The performance decrease in ODBC is easy to overlook for the lazy coder
since the php interface to ODBC is such a joy to use. I have looked into
unixODBC but to me it was just a smaller incarnation of what the Mono
project is doing, making us play by microsoft's rules. (as we discussed
earlier) So i began with coding with the MySQL interface. It turned out
to give you more control and better performance after unlearning my ODBC
habits i was comfortable with the MySQL commands and could really start
putting it to work. 

I don't think that PHP needs a CPAN and IF your needs are outside of the
rather large scope of what comes with PHP I DO think you should use PERL
or some other more widely aimed language. If you really need something
crazy try the C interface to CGI (i would love to hear of anyone's
experience with that)

PHP's inclusiveness is one of the reasons i think it has made it big on
the web. I am in the PHP is the best for the web camp but i certainly am
not in the PHP is going to replace all scripting languages camp. 

My site does not experience any sort of volume to speak of so I am no
expert on how php performance in real life high stress situations
(anyone please weigh in here) however i am using PHP5 (ya ya beta ya ya
it is a test server) Anyways PHP5, Apache 2.0.48, OpenSSL(whatever the
latest is) It is running on Yoper which is a 100% i686 optimized distro
which runs as well as gentoo did. I used SQLite as the db backend which
gives incredible performance (as it writes directly to file skip the
middle man eg has to be on the same machine) aside for some weirdness
with it that i am in the process of fleshing out it works great. That is
what i am running, the features are incredible and the performance has
been superior. As far as stability goes no crashes or strangeness yet! 

Well that is that! This might be an odd time to add this in now but has
anyone had any experience with the webserver "Caudium" what their
website promises makes it sound like an excellent choice if you are
generating dynamic pages.   


On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 16:27, Josh Glover wrote: 
> First of all, allow me to say that I have a decent bit of experience with
> PHP4, and have found that experience to be a pleasure. PHP allows, with
> its native OOP support, for extremely modular (i.e. good) applications
> which in turn produces re-usable code.
> 
> I do feel, however, that PHP4, like many younger pieces of software, has
> its share of drawbacks. One of the biggest is the lack of something like
> CPAN--a highly organised, easy to access collection of "modules" or
> "libraries" (whichever nomenclature you prefer), that can be easily plugged
> into applications to save even more develment time. Another is performance.
> To me, having to use single-quotes to avoid the penalty that PHP4's string
> interpolation implementation encurs is, for lack of a better word, gross.
> Note that Perl had this problem as well, but solved it somewhere around
> 5.0.
> 
> Another issue is PHP4's database support. It is actually great, and a joy
> to work with--until your web application has to support multiple database
> backends. The PHP library for accessing an Oracle database is different
> enough from the MySQL library to make porting a PHP4 app to a different
> database quite a chore. Contrast this to Perl's DBI/DBD library. (ADOdb
> [1] is attempting to solve this issue, and is doing a decent job of it.)
> 
> And finally, the point that you have contested the most, is that I have
> *seen* that PHP4 has some scalability issues, as described by Doug
> Hawkins: http://www.colug.net/pipermail/colug/2003-July/008012.html
> 
> Note that the problems he ran into were with the engine itself. He ran
> into an issue with the deserialiser not being able to deserialise chunks
> that had been serialised with the same mechanism. When he investigated,
> he found that the serialiser code and the deserialiser code were about
> as different as night and day.
> 
> The above are examples of what I mean when I say that PHP4 has some
> issues that should be considered before using it for serious application
> development. If you can make PHP4 do what you want without any of these
> being an issue, great.
> 
> PHP4 is the ideal tool for many web applications, I will admit readily.
> But when someone makes the claim that PHP4 is the most scalable platform
> for web applications, period, I feel the need to share the experiences
> that my colleagues at INCOGEN and I ran into.
> 
> Ultimately, my goal is to educate, to get data out there so that Joe
> Coder can make the most informed decision possible. My goal is not to
> evangelise the usage of any one language.
> 
> I am sure that you can come up with a list of potential problems with
> Perl, Java, or any other language commonly used for web applications,
> and you are doing the community a service when you do so, in the context
> of a discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of languages.
> 
> That is what I am trying to do here. Not defame PHP, and certainly not
> defame you. Not even to win an argument with you, and I apologise for
> my part in our argument. COLUG is a technical mailing list, and while it
> is not uncommon for technical discussions to spiral into flaming, that is
> never a good thing.
> 
> So from now on, I will try to keep my arguments technical and to keep my
> temper on rather a shorter leash.
> 
> In closing, the reason I say PHP4 above instead of just PHP is that PHP5
> looks like it addresses the technical issues that I have mentioned. Now
> if only the PHP community can produce something like CPAN! (If there
> exists a CPHPAN of which I am unaware, certainly feel free to point it
> out.)
> 
> Apologetically yours,
> Josh Glover
> 
> [1] http://php.weblogs.com/ADODB

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Mon Dec  8 05:17:37 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <200312080017.17618.bob@disclosed.org>
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	 <200312080017.17618.bob@disclosed.org>
Message-ID: <1070878657.3114.140.camel@linux.local>

Ya pear that is what i was looking to say. As i just posted a second ago
i doubt there is much demand to extend the features of php so greatly
since it is used almost solely for web dev and it has pretty much
everything you would need for your average ecommerce/interactive site.
It even has interfaces for creating flash animations on the fly!

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 21:17, Robert Jewell wrote:
> On Sunday 07 December 2003 19:27, Josh Glover wrote:
> > if only the PHP community can produce something like CPAN! (If there
> > exists a CPHPAN of which I am unaware, certainly feel free to point it
> > out.)
> 
> It's not an exact "archive network" like CPAN or CTAN, but PHP's PEAR[1] has 
> been a mildly useful tool for me, and I hope to see if flourish.  
> Unfortunately, It's still rather small, when compared to CPAN.  I think this 
> is largely due to a lack of support caused by its young age.  I'm not sure on 
> the specifics, but PEAR capabilities did not come with PHP until version 4.2 
> or 4.3.  
> 
> 1: http://pear.php.net
> 
> An excerpt from the PEAR manual: 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> What is PEAR?
> 
> PEAR is short for "PHP Extension and Application Repository" and is 		
> pronounced just like the fruit. The purpose of PEAR is to provide: 
> 
> A structured library of open-sourced code for PHP users 
> A system for code distribution and package maintenance 
> A standard style for code written in PHP, specified here[2]
> The PHP Foundation Classes (PFC), see more below[3]
> The PHP Extension Community Library (PECL), see more below[4]
> A web site, mailing lists and download mirrors to support the PHP/PEAR 
> community 
> 
> PEAR is a community-driven project with the PEAR Group [5] as the governing 
> body. The project has been founded by Stig S. Bakken in 1999 and quite a lot 
> of people[6] have joined the project since then. 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 2: http://pear.php.net/manual/en/standards.php
> 3: http://pear.php.net/manual/en/introduction.php#about-pfc
> 4: http://pear.php.net/manual/en/introduction.php#about-pecl
> 5: http://pear.php.net/group/
> 6: http://pear.php.net/accounts.php
> 
> 
> I've used it for database abstraction and to incorporate BBCode in a weblog 
> software that I maintain and develop.  I plan on using PEAR packages for 
> caching, and for benchmarking while i play with caching.  
> 
> Anyway,
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From mharrold at cas.org  Mon Dec  8 06:41:38 2003
From: mharrold at cas.org (Mike Harrold)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:57 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <1070863634.3114.1.camel@linux.local> from "Nick Comtois" at Dec
	07, 2003 10:07:14 PM
Message-ID: <200312081141.hB8BfcI13679@srv45.cas.org>

> 
> On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 16:42, Josh Glover wrote:
> > Quoth Nick Comtois (Sat 2003-12-06 06:36:47PM -0800):
> > 
> > > what i mean to say is that C and C++ have relatively tons more in common
> > > than other languages have in common with each other. eg perl and java or
> > > C and php etc.
> > 
> > I would argue that C and Java have as much in common as C and C++.
> syntax wise yes. Any other way no. C and C++ are both compiled into
> binary java isn't. Java is just a really customizable program when you
> get down to it.

I suspect you've never heard of gcj then?

/Mike
From colug at jmglov.net  Mon Dec  8 08:17:22 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <200312080017.17618.bob@disclosed.org>
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<200312080017.17618.bob@disclosed.org>
Message-ID: <20031208131722.GA28522%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Robert Jewell (Mon 2003-12-08 12:17:17AM -0500):

> On Sunday 07 December 2003 19:27, Josh Glover wrote:
>
> > if only the PHP community can produce something like CPAN! (If there
> > exists a CPHPAN of which I am unaware, certainly feel free to point it
> > out.)
> 
> It's not an exact "archive network" like CPAN or CTAN, but PHP's PEAR[1] has 
> been a mildly useful tool for me, and I hope to see if flourish.

Ah yes, now the fact that The Horde IMP requires something called Horde-PEAR
makes perfect sense. :)

> Unfortunately, It's still rather small, when compared to CPAN.  I think this 
> is largely due to a lack of support caused by its young age.  I'm not sure on 
> the specifics, but PEAR capabilities did not come with PHP until version 4.2 
> or 4.3.  
> 
> 1: http://pear.php.net

Very cool! Thanks for pointing this out!

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From colug at jmglov.net  Mon Dec  8 08:34:44 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <1070878492.3114.138.camel@linux.local>
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1070878492.3114.138.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031208133444.GB28522%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Mon 2003-12-08 02:14:52AM -0800):

> PERL has CPAN, C/C++ Have endless libraries for everything imaginable
> and Java like php have everything built in. 

Yes, but there is no one-stop fix for C[++] libraries (and yes, here it
makes sense to group C and C++ together ;) that is as well organised and
as easy to use as CPAN.

> I don't think that PHP needs a CPAN and IF your needs are outside of the
> rather large scope of what comes with PHP I DO think you should use PERL
> or some other more widely aimed language.

I would say that nearly any language could benefit from something like
CPAN. That is one of Perl's killer apps, dreaming up a great idea for a
new application and being able to go to CPAN and pull down four or five
(or fifty) modules that save you from having to code up feature X, Y, or
Z. PHP does have a large standard library, that is true, but so does
Perl. And there have been many times when I have come up empty while
looking for a standard way to do things in both Perl and PHP. For Perl,
I was able to leverage the code of hundreds of other Perl hackers around
the globe, thanks to CPAN. For PHP, not so much. I am sure that Google
can help you, and maybe in a year or so PEAR will have grown to a more
useful size.

I would love something like CPAN for C[++]. It would be great to just
run a commmand like "ccan -cpp -e 'install Net::SMTP'" to grab a SMTP
class for C++.

> If you really need something crazy try the C interface to CGI (i would
> love to hear of anyone's experience with that)

I used a CGI library for C++ a few years back while working for Tovaris.
[1] I must say that C or C++ (or any other compiled) language is probably
not what you want for web applications. At least, not without a massive
reorientation of the web development process.

First of all, most web design is done using a very large number of small
iterations of code, test, code, test... and so on. A compiled language
does not lend itself as well to this, as you have to wait for the compiler
every time.

Secondly, web applications tend to involve a good bit of text processing,
something that Perl and PHP (basically any language with native support
for PCREs) do much better than C[++]. And let's face it, Perl is still
king when it comes to regexps--being able to say:

$str =~ /^.*(foo)\s*$/;
my $foo = $1;

is easier even than the PHP equivalent:

pcre_match( '/^.*(foo)\s*$/', $str, $matches );
$foo = $matches[0];

But PHP is better (and here I mean, easier) than most languages for text
processing since you do not have to compile the regexp ahead of time.

-Josh

[1] http://www.tovaris.com/

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From JBalint at alldata.net  Mon Dec  8 10:31:06 2003
From: JBalint at alldata.net (Balint, Jess)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
Message-ID: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net>

Bah - I really dislike these discussions, but ....

> I have never meant anyone, ever, who has said they enjoy 
> coding in java.

I TREMENDOUSLY ENJOY CODING IN JAVA.

I don't use Java small web apps, or PHP. I use perl w/DBI & CGI modules.
It's just too easy. I also do systems programming in C. Java doesn't try to
infringe upon it.

Here's why I use Java:

* Frameworks:
	MVC application frameworks like Struts, WebWork, Tapestry, Maverick.
I believe MVC was first implemented in smalltalk applications. It aims to
seperate workflow from presentation from application logic. Now how does PHP
do that?
	Object persistance frameworks like Hibernate, Torque, OJB. Basically
object relational mapping (ORM) is used to map objects to database tables so
to pull 15 fields out and set state to an object, you don't need 15
setThis() and setThat() calls. I know at least Hibernate has built-in
support for connection pooling, and you can plug any connection pool library
you want in place of it. I have yet to see anything like this for PHP.
	Testing frameworks like JUnit are the most basic support for unit
testing. Cactus is a "live" web application testing framework and has
extensions such as StrutsTest for testing struts. Where does PHP sit now?

* Native Cutting Edge Features:
	Java already has at least three different aspect oriented
programming (AOP) extensions. I bet most PHP programmer's have yet to even
hear of AOP (not a diss).
	RMI and CORBA in the default JDK. Need I say more?

* Tools:
	Build tools like Ant and Maven that support unit testing and
continuous integration. I firmly believe in the capabilites of make, but
goes much further and it's easier to keep just one build file for the whole
project.
	XDoclet is basically a code (among others) generation engine that
code generate stub/skeleton code for EJBs, Struts configuration files,
deployment descriptors, web service definitions and other things. Hrmmm....
I guess PHP wouldn't really need anything like that.

There are tons of other reasons!, and some great OSS IDE's including Eclipse
and NetBeans.

Here are links to things mentioned:

Struts: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/
WebWork: http://www.opensymphony.com/webwork/
Tapestry: http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry/
Maverick: http://mav.sourceforge.net/
Hibernate: http://www.hibernate.org/
Torque: http://db.apache.org/torque/
OJB: http://db.apache.org/ojb/
JUnit: http://junit.org/index.htm
Cactus: http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/
AOP: AspectJ: http://eclipse.org/aspectj/ AspectWerkz:
http://aspectwerkz.codehaus.org/ Nanning: http://nanning.codehaus.org/
Ant: http://ant.apache.org/
Maven: http://maven.apache.org/
XDoclet: http://xdoclet.sourceforge.net/

~ Jess

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colug-bounces@colug.net 
> [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net]On Behalf
> Of Nick Comtois
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:13 PM
> To: Central OH Linux User Group
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] It's all in the name
> 
> 
> I think we are digging to deep here and are getting sidetracked. My
> opinion on Java is simple. I don't want to write in it. And i 
> don't want
> to use any program written in it when i could use a C/C++ 
> version. I am
> sure that C is very different when you get down to it than C++ I am
> talking about higher level application development. 
> 
> It doesn't surprise me that you do most of your coding in C it is the
> superior language!!!!!!! I though that is what i had been 
> saying! Think
> overall i mean of course you could say well java does this and then i
> could point you to this project or this benchmark or this 
> site, we could
> do that for years. I use C you use C i run programs written 
> in C before
> Java I think that speaks it all. 
> 
> I have never meant anyone, ever, who has said they enjoy 
> coding in java.
> I am sure it has value. For me it is not enough to convince me to code
> or use any java product. 
> 
> I wanted to make that point again about it all being personal
> preference. I bet that there is some webserver out there that 
> churns out
> this page this much faster using this language than this 
> other webserver
> running this... etc. etc. etc. I have found it interesting to hear
> Josh's views i really have and want to thank him for responding and
> provoking intelligent debate. Anyone else have any opinions? What does
> everyone else use in their development life?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:49, Josh Glover wrote:
> > Quoth manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com
> > 
> > > If you are an IT manager i will just shit myself. I was 
> talking to a developer
> > > friend of mine who complained that it is so easy to sell 
> Java to a manager
> > > because of what it promises. Devolopment DOES take 
> longer, there was an
> > > article a while back where a professor at MIT had his 
> class seperate into
> > > groups to make basically a website, each group choose 
> different tools, think
> > > php asp javapages via jakarta the jakarta team didn't 
> even get their page
> > > working and failed while everyone else was working on 
> making everything look
> > > good.
> > 
> > I think that all this proves is that there is a steeper 
> learning curve to
> > Tomcat, which I readily admit. However, as with other 
> things with steep
> > learning  curves (e.g. Unix), there are some benefits to 
> those who are willing
> > to invest the ramp-up time.
> > 
> > And I am certainly not an IT manager, or any other sort of 
> manager. I love the
> > coding too much for that.
> > 
> > > Java programs like limewire make my p4 1.8ghz look like 
> my old 450mhz machine,
> > > sure it might be ok on the command line but in that case 
> why not use something
> > > else?
> > 
> > Java has a big memory footprint, but I don't find it much 
> *slower* in practise
> > than many C++ applications (oh yes, C++ is slower than C in 
> most cases, there
> > is another difference), especially with 1.4's NIO stuff.
> > 
> > > I don't think that you can say that C/C++ are different 
> beasts. A valid C
> > > program is a valid C++ program.
> > 
> > But the inverse does not hold, and hence my point. C++ 
> introduces some
> > abiguity into the C grammar. In fact, it is possible to 
> represent C's grammar
> > entirely in BNF notation (and thus use a parse generator on 
> it), which it is
> > not possible for C++.
> > 
> > C is a systems programming language, and, as one of my 
> professors memorably
> > said, C++ is a systems programming language with OOP tumors 
> grafted on.
> > 
> > This is not to say that I do not think C++ is a good 
> language, I am just
> > trying to emphasis that the two languages are more 
> different than popularly
> > believed.
> > 
> > > I actually find the "unwieldy" amount of Java libraries 
> one of the only
> > > comforts of coding in it.
> > 
> > The libraries, as I said, are unwieldy to the uninitiated, 
> a boon once learned.
> > 
> > >> Hrm, this claim does not seem to hold much water. I 
> would say that Java
> > >> excels at serious enterprise apps, due to:
> > >>
> > >> a) its excellent scalability
> > >> b) the great deployment and testing tools that exists 
> (such as Ant and
> > >>    JMeter)
> > >> c) Javadoc, which makes it easy to generate API 
> documentation on the fly
> > >
> > > Doxygen, Electricfence, etc and are you saying that C 
> wouldn't be even more
> > > scalable if you know what you are doing.
> > 
> > No, I was not saying that C is not scalable, nor that it 
> does not possess
> > these other qualities. Though actually, C comes nowhere 
> near Java when it
> > comes to (b). Sure, there are tools like ElectricFence, the 
> wonderful
> > Valgrind[1], and UVA's Splint[2], but there exist no 
> automated testing
> > frameworks like JMeter.
> > 
> > It may (or may not) surprise you to learn that I do most of 
> my coding in C,
> > due to the fact that most of what I do is systems 
> programming. It may surprise
> > you further to learn that I dislike programming in Java, 
> and dislike Java's
> > position as the All-Purpose Language du Jour if you believe 
> the hype. However,
> > as I said before, I don't like to write off languages when 
> it is clear that
> > they have value.
> > 
> > > I don't take it as a personal attack at all. Same goes 
> for what I say to you.
> > > If either of us could say "hey you're absolutely right" 
> then java or C
> > > development would stop altogether and everyone would use 
> the other.
> > 
> > I don't see how C and Java are in competition. C is clearly 
> better for some
> > things, and Java clearly better for others. As Perl is 
> clearly better for
> > others entirely, and Python... and so on, ad nauseum.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Josh
> > 
> > [1] http://valgrind.kde.org/
> > [2] http://www.splint.org/
> 
> 
From colug at jmglov.net  Mon Dec  8 10:54:02 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: 
     <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
References: 
    <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
Message-ID: <2808.24.123.50.150.1070898842.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth Balint, Jess

> Bah - I really dislike these discussions, but ....
>
>> I have never meant anyone, ever, who has said they enjoy
>> coding in java.
>
> I TREMENDOUSLY ENJOY CODING IN JAVA.
> [...]
> Here's why I use Java:

Great post, Jess! Your reasons for using Java are good.

> 	MVC application frameworks like Struts, WebWork, Tapestry, Maverick.
> I believe MVC was first implemented in smalltalk applications. It aims to
> seperate workflow from presentation from application logic. Now how does PHP
> do that?

On a related note, anyone doing web application development in Perl should
check out HTML::Template[1], in that it does a great job of separating content
from code. The HTML::Template::JIT module on the same page looks really neat.
I must play with that! :)

I use HTML::Template'd Perl scripts to generate my website as static HTML,
which is a really cool way to avoid having tons of duplicate headers and so
on, and also to avoid having mod_perl or mod_php serving out my website, which
my aging webserver might not want to give enough CPU time to. If anyone is
interested in this solution, I'd be happy to write it up and post it here.

[1] http://html-template.sourceforge.net/

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From davidbro at infinet.com  Mon Dec  8 11:31:44 2003
From: davidbro at infinet.com (David Brown)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] MAC address filter
Message-ID: <200312081631.hB8GVidN002009@mail0.mx.voyager.net>

mmmm...interesting...so if i just spoof a 'good' modems MAC addy, i've 
got cable for life w/o paying ----BWAHHHHAAAHHAHAHA (puts pinky finger 
up to lip in Dr.Evil pose)
although it COULD be done that way, most isps wouldnt--A) they dont have 
the overhead $$$$ to watch all the logs of the various subscribers and 
B) they wouldn't want the legal ramifications if they didnt s
stop an infected machine(someone else pointed that one out also)


Am Son, 2003-12-07 um 01.07 schrieb C.L. Harting:
<snip>
> It just occurred to me, however, that perhaps RR (or any 
> cable/DSLprovider) could do something to weed out those systems -- 
> couldn't they determine the MAC address of the cable modem attached to 
> those machines and just deny the modem an IP address (when, say, the 
> DHCP lease is up)?  Then, when the affected subscriber called to 
report 
> an outage, the customer service rep could ask for the cable modem's 
MAC 
> address, compare it to the 'black list' and inform the customer that 
> their system appears to be compromised.  Perhaps the real question is 
-- 
> if the ISP can do this, how then do you proceed?  RR certainly doesn't 
> want to be in the business of cleaning its customers' machines, but I 
> believe it owes all its customers some enforcement of the policies 
> stated in the customer agreement.

From sun at percipia.com  Mon Dec  8 12:04:09 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (Sundaram Ramasamy)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Delays in cron  jobs output E-mail
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1070878492.3114.138.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <000c01c3bdad$4c283080$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>

Hi,



In my customer site I have cron job running every night, I didn't redirect
cron output I want to get it as E-mail.



User home directory I have created .forward file with my E-mail address.



My problem:



I am getting E-mail one day later (when next time cron jobs runs I am
getting old cron output E-mail).

Yesterday cron job output E-mail I am getting it today. I need the E-mail
same day.



My configuration:



Redhat Linux 7.1 ( no update installed on it)



crond rpm  :



#rpm -qf /usr/sbin/crond
vixie-cron-3.0.1-62



Any tips to solve this problem.



Thanks







From JBalint at alldata.net  Mon Dec  8 13:15:25 2003
From: JBalint at alldata.net (Balint, Jess)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Delays in cron  jobs output E-mail
Message-ID: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAFA0@scad1exis02.alldata.net>

Maybe you could post the cron entry? Did you check the date on the computer?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colug-bounces@colug.net 
> [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net]On Behalf
> Of Sundaram Ramasamy
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:04 PM
> To: Central OH Linux User Group
> Subject: [COLUG] Delays in cron jobs output E-mail
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> In my customer site I have cron job running every night, I 
> didn't redirect
> cron output I want to get it as E-mail.
> 
> 
> 
> User home directory I have created .forward file with my 
> E-mail address.
> 
> 
> 
> My problem:
> 
> 
> 
> I am getting E-mail one day later (when next time cron jobs runs I am
> getting old cron output E-mail).
> 
> Yesterday cron job output E-mail I am getting it today. I 
> need the E-mail
> same day.
> 
> 
> 
> My configuration:
> 
> 
> 
> Redhat Linux 7.1 ( no update installed on it)
> 
> 
> 
> crond rpm  :
> 
> 
> 
> #rpm -qf /usr/sbin/crond
> vixie-cron-3.0.1-62
> 
> 
> 
> Any tips to solve this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
From blitz at post891.org  Mon Dec  8 17:41:02 2003
From: blitz at post891.org (Patrick Blitz)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <2808.24.123.50.150.1070898842.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: 
	<5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net> 
	<2808.24.123.50.150.1070898842.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1070923264.2719.9.camel@ra-blitz>

Am Mon, 2003-12-08 um 16.54 schrieb Josh Glover:
<snip>
> 
> I use HTML::Template'd Perl scripts to generate my website as static HTML,
> which is a really cool way to avoid having tons of duplicate headers and so
> on, and also to avoid having mod_perl or mod_php serving out my website, which
> my aging webserver might not want to give enough CPU time to. If anyone is
> interested in this solution, I'd be happy to write it up and post it here.
> 
> [1] http://html-template.sourceforge.net/
> 

Thanks for that pointer..
it seems that this is a way that also some grown-up websites with
millions of hits use for their webpages (think yahoo), as many pages
need to be created out of a CMS, but not really dynamicly, and the
dynamic content can be added from different Servers (if you are REALLY
big :-) )

Patrick
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From blitz at post891.org  Mon Dec  8 17:43:20 2003
From: blitz at post891.org (Patrick Blitz)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1070864040.3114.8.camel@linux.local>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
	<3FD26F4E.7040208@rocketmail.com>  <1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz> 
	<1070864040.3114.8.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>

Am Mon, 2003-12-08 um 07.14 schrieb Nick Comtois:
>
> Customer: "Why the **** can't i get on the internet??????????!!!!" 
> 
> Sales Rep: We discovered you had a virus so we deni......." 
> 
> Customer: "You did whaaaaat????? It worked just FINE!!!" 
> 
> Sales Rep: "sir we can put you in contact with {insert company name
> here} who will fix your computer for a fee" 
> 
> Customer: "I pay for your internet service which you deny to me and now
> you want me to shell out more money just to get something i was already
> paying for?"
 
hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
customers would get annoyed...
but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)

Patrick
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From sjs at khadrin.com  Mon Dec  8 18:32:17 2003
From: sjs at khadrin.com (Stephen J. Smith)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
	<1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz><1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
Message-ID: <1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>

On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> customers would get annoyed...
> but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)

I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)

Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.

From sun at percipia.com  Mon Dec  8 20:16:17 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (Sundaram Ramasamy)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re:  FAT File system write problems
References: 
	<200312050044.hB50iN8t030253@stones.wcbe.org><200312052344.50004.bnmille@myrealbox.com>
	<200312060311.40816.rfunk@funknet.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c3bdf2$0c6fe1a0$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>

Hi all,
Thanks for every one. the following entry was solved my problem.


/dev/hdd1               /data                   vfat
umask=002,gid=500,users,mode=0777  0 0

-SR

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Funk" <rfunk@funknet.net>
To: <bnmille@myrealbox.com>; "Central OH Linux User Group" <colug@colug.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: [COLUG] Re: FAT File system write problems


> Brian Miller wrote:
> > Because of the way Unix file systems and FAT "interact", the best
> > you are going to get is to allow 1 user at a time to make file
> > modifications on a FAT file system.
>
> That's not quite true.  You can set options on the filesystem to allow
> everyone on the system, or everyone in a particular group, to write to the
> filesystem.  I believe the umask=0 option would allow anyone to write, and
> umask=002, along with gid=42, would give member of group number 42 write
> access.  See the mount man page for details.
>
> -- 
> ==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
>  Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
>  http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>

From mplemmons at ameritech.net  Mon Dec  8 21:50:40 2003
From: mplemmons at ameritech.net (Mike Plemmons)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
 <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
 <1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz>
 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>

At 06:32 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > customers would get annoyed...
> > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
>
>I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
>agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
>running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
>RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
>
>Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
>not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
>terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
>is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.

RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server 
they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a 
friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a 
server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall 
that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course, 
you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away 
with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open 
relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.

I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a 
binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you 
agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every 
offender, that is a different story.

--
Mike Plemmons
mplemmons@ameritech.net
-------------- next part --------------

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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From dmaxwell at columbus.rr.com  Mon Dec  8 22:24:57 2003
From: dmaxwell at columbus.rr.com (Dave Maxwell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:58 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200312082224.57707.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>

On Monday 08 December 2003 09:50 pm, Mike Plemmons wrote:
>
> RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server
> they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a
> friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a
> server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall
> that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course,
> you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away
> with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open
> relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.

I've run sshd off my RoadRunner connections for over two years now.  I've done 
this in both Powell and Centerburg.  They have never hasseled me over it.  I 
think its public services that hack them off.  I'm pretty much the only one 
who uses it.  Every once in a blue moon, a friend will use it to pull or push 
a few files to the machine.  I just tunnel any other protocol I want to use 
over it.

> I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a
> binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you
> agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every
> offender, that is a different story.
 
I suppose they could but rules can always be enforced selectively.  I suspect 
those clauses are kept in reserve for warez and script kiddies and spammers.

Dave
-- 
Power corrupts.  And atomic power corrupts atomically.

From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Mon Dec  8 22:42:54 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
	 <1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz><1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>
Message-ID: <1070941374.2759.7.camel@linux.local>

OK. here's one for you guys.  I know this will sound excessive on my
part but...Wideopenwest had NO written policy ANYWHERE on how much
newsgroup traffic one could download. At the end of my second month, I
ran over their limit.  I was downloading LOTS of Linux distros from the
newsgroups at the time.  The speed is much faster than through the
average FTP site.  Anyway, I called many times asking them to point me
to anything in writing about newsgroup usage.  They admittedly had no
such policy at the time.

I explained it like this...Suppose you bought a car and every 5,000
miles per month, counting from the first of the month, your car just
stopped wherever you were.  Suppose the sales guys didn't tell you about
that AND they explained it away dismissively by telling you you
shouldn't have to go more than 5,000 miles per month.

So, there was an arbitrary bit of fluff they just happened to not tel
anyone signing up about. I am a big believer in newsgoups.  There's a
ton of great info out there.  I particularly like rec.video.desktop.

Paying for the fastest connection here.  I have my reasons...

Sean

On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 18:32, Stephen J. Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > customers would get annoyed...
> > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> 
> I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> 
> Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Mon Dec  8 22:52:46 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Revolution OS Trailer
Message-ID: <1070941966.2759.15.camel@linux.local>

Just in case some of you have not seen the RevolutionOS movie by J.T.
Moore, I have the trailer in RealVideo format.  I have the permission of
Mr. Moore to do so.  I ripped it from the DVD and re-encoded it as a
SureStream Real file to use as a test of my streaming server.  You can
find it at rtsp://64.233.222.67:554/RevolutionOS.rm

Copyright is retained by the owners so don't grab it and do anything odd
with it.  Mr. Moore seems like a great guy.  Note that some browsers do
not recognize the rtsp as a valid protocol.  You may have to type it
directly into realplayer.

Anyone here using anything other than RealPlayer 8?

Sean

From bob at disclosed.org  Tue Dec  9 01:33:05 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Revolution OS Trailer
In-Reply-To: <1070941966.2759.15.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070941966.2759.15.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <200312090133.05758.bob@disclosed.org>

On Monday 08 December 2003 22:52, Sean McHenry wrote:
>
> Anyone here using anything other than RealPlayer 8?
>
> Sean
>

I used mplayer.. though i'm curious about the actual legal ramifications of 
using mplayer to decode real streams, if anyone knows.  If not, I'll find 
out.  I like to not break laws. :)

But, regardless, mplayer played the stream flawlessly, except for a little 
sound hiccup-belch at the end of play.


Bob
From blitz at post891.org  Tue Dec  9 08:50:04 2003
From: blitz at post891.org (Patrick Blitz)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <200312082224.57707.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com> 
	<200312082224.57707.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1070977806.1145.23.camel@ra-blitz>

Am Die, 2003-12-09 um 04.24 schrieb Dave Maxwell:

> > RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server
> > they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a
> > friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a
> > server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall
> > that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course,
> > you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away
> > with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open
> > relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.

on a whole other note...
does RR change IP's now from time to time?
my connection over at Dublin had for the whole 9 months i was there the
same IP...
I've heard from people disconnecting their modem for like a couple of
days, and not getting another IP.. is that common?
I'm living here at a place where you'll get a new IP every night (and
additionally, they disconnect you every night to stop people from
running servers, which obviously doesn't work at all => DynDNS) 
so much to old Europe :-)
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From sun at percipia.com  Tue Dec  9 11:35:46 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (Sundaram Ramasamy)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Delays in cron  jobs output E-mail
References: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAFA0@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
Message-ID: <004901c3be72$7f2b01e0$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>

I checked the time on that machine, It has correct time.

Tue Dec 9 08:14:05 PST 2003

Here is the crontab entry I have:

01 2 * * 1,3,5  /ptce/bin/ptce restart

I was ptce script output as an E-mail.



Thanks



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Balint, Jess" <JBalint@alldata.net>
To: "'Central OH Linux User Group'" <colug@colug.net>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: [COLUG] Delays in cron jobs output E-mail


> Maybe you could post the cron entry? Did you check the date on the
computer?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: colug-bounces@colug.net
> > [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net]On Behalf
> > Of Sundaram Ramasamy
> > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:04 PM
> > To: Central OH Linux User Group
> > Subject: [COLUG] Delays in cron jobs output E-mail
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > In my customer site I have cron job running every night, I
> > didn't redirect
> > cron output I want to get it as E-mail.
> >
> >
> >
> > User home directory I have created .forward file with my
> > E-mail address.
> >
> >
> >
> > My problem:
> >
> >
> >
> > I am getting E-mail one day later (when next time cron jobs runs I am
> > getting old cron output E-mail).
> >
> > Yesterday cron job output E-mail I am getting it today. I
> > need the E-mail
> > same day.
> >
> >
> >
> > My configuration:
> >
> >
> >
> > Redhat Linux 7.1 ( no update installed on it)
> >
> >
> >
> > crond rpm  :
> >
> >
> >
> > #rpm -qf /usr/sbin/crond
> > vixie-cron-3.0.1-62
> >
> >
> >
> > Any tips to solve this problem.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>

From gamerine at iwaynet.net  Tue Dec  9 11:42:35 2003
From: gamerine at iwaynet.net (Glenn Amerine)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Thanks to Wade!
Message-ID: <16341.64379.266018.264062@funky>

Sorry this took me a couple of days, but many thanks need to go out to
Wade Pinkston for helping me out of a bind last week with some Debian
3.0 discs that I lost during a move and needed another set really
fast.

Thanks Wade!
Glenn

From austin.gresham at avail.com  Tue Dec  9 11:54:45 2003
From: austin.gresham at avail.com (Austin Gresham)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Delays in cron  jobs output E-mail
In-Reply-To: <004901c3be72$7f2b01e0$8c01a8c0@RSUNDARAM>
Message-ID: <011101c3be75$2651c510$c80ba8c0@availxpvm>

Have you checked the Sendmail logs on this server?  (assuming it's running
Sendmail).   If Sendmail is not running as a daemon, then outbound email is
queued until a "queue runner" is called (maybe also via cron).  Since you're
running 7.1, your probably also running an older version of sendmail and the
queue runner would be this command:

sendmail -q 

If you're running a newer Sendmail, then the command would be

sendmail -Ac -q

Check the queue with the "mailq" command (or "mailq -Ac" if a newer version
of Sendmail is running)

It's possible that the email is sitting in the queue until a queue runner
picks it up the next night.

On another note, is this truly running an -unpatched- 7.1 distro???

-Austin


> -----Original Message-----
> From: colug-bounces@colug.net 
> [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net] On Behalf Of Sundaram Ramasamy
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:36 AM
> To: Central OH Linux User Group
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] Delays in cron jobs output E-mail
> 
> 
> I checked the time on that machine, It has correct time.
> 
> Tue Dec 9 08:14:05 PST 2003
> 
> Here is the crontab entry I have:
> 
> 01 2 * * 1,3,5  /ptce/bin/ptce restart
> 
> I was ptce script output as an E-mail.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Balint, Jess" <JBalint@alldata.net>
> To: "'Central OH Linux User Group'" <colug@colug.net>
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 1:15 PM
> Subject: RE: [COLUG] Delays in cron jobs output E-mail
> 
> 
> > Maybe you could post the cron entry? Did you check the date on the
> computer?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: colug-bounces@colug.net
> > > [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net]On Behalf
> > > Of Sundaram Ramasamy
> > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:04 PM
> > > To: Central OH Linux User Group
> > > Subject: [COLUG] Delays in cron jobs output E-mail
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In my customer site I have cron job running every night, I
> > > didn't redirect
> > > cron output I want to get it as E-mail.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > User home directory I have created .forward file with my
> > > E-mail address.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My problem:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am getting E-mail one day later (when next time cron 
> jobs runs I am
> > > getting old cron output E-mail).
> > >
> > > Yesterday cron job output E-mail I am getting it today. I
> > > need the E-mail
> > > same day.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My configuration:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Redhat Linux 7.1 ( no update installed on it)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > crond rpm  :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > #rpm -qf /usr/sbin/crond
> > > vixie-cron-3.0.1-62
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any tips to solve this problem.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 


From mplemmons at ameritech.net  Tue Dec  9 18:00:14 2003
From: mplemmons at ameritech.net (Mike Plemmons)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Revolution OS Trailer slightly OT
In-Reply-To: <1070941966.2759.15.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031209175934.0296df08@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>

Does anyone know where I can buy this DVD?

At 10:52 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Just in case some of you have not seen the RevolutionOS movie by J.T.
>Moore, I have the trailer in RealVideo format.  I have the permission of
>Mr. Moore to do so.  I ripped it from the DVD and re-encoded it as a
>SureStream Real file to use as a test of my streaming server.  You can
>find it at rtsp://64.233.222.67:554/RevolutionOS.rm
>
>Copyright is retained by the owners so don't grab it and do anything odd
>with it.  Mr. Moore seems like a great guy.  Note that some browsers do
>not recognize the rtsp as a valid protocol.  You may have to type it
>directly into realplayer.
>
>Anyone here using anything other than RealPlayer 8?
>
>Sean
>
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003

--
Mike Plemmons
mplemmons@ameritech.net
-------------- next part --------------

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003
From dmaxwell at columbus.rr.com  Tue Dec  9 19:26:05 2003
From: dmaxwell at columbus.rr.com (Dave Maxwell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1070977806.1145.23.camel@ra-blitz>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<200312082224.57707.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
	<1070977806.1145.23.camel@ra-blitz>
Message-ID: <200312091926.06141.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>

On Tuesday 09 December 2003 08:50 am, Patrick Blitz wrote:
 
>
> on a whole other note...
> does RR change IP's now from time to time?
> my connection over at Dublin had for the whole 9 months i was there the
> same IP...

In both places, I've had the same IP for months and months.  Obviously, when I 
moved to Centerburg I got a new IP but it's been the same since last 
September.  Every once in a blue moon my IP will change.  The longest I ever 
had an IP last was 9 months.

Dave
-- 
If people concentrated on the really important things in life,
there'd be a shortage of fishing poles.
		-- Doug Larson

From colug at jmglov.net  Tue Dec  9 19:40:51 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Revolution OS Trailer slightly OT
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031209175934.0296df08@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
References: <1070941966.2759.15.camel@linux.local>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20031209175934.0296df08@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031210004051.GA26372%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Mike Plemmons (Tue 2003-12-09 06:00:14PM -0500):

> Does anyone know where I can buy this DVD?

http://www.revolution-os.com/

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
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From mplemmons at ameritech.net  Tue Dec  9 19:57:04 2003
From: mplemmons at ameritech.net (Mike Plemmons)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Revolution OS Trailer slightly OT
In-Reply-To: <20031210004051.GA26372%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031209175934.0296df08@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
 <1070941966.2759.15.camel@linux.local>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20031209175934.0296df08@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031209195605.028506c0@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>

At 07:40 PM 12/9/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Quoth Mike Plemmons (Tue 2003-12-09 06:00:14PM -0500):
>
> > Does anyone know where I can buy this DVD?
>
>http://www.revolution-os.com/


Thanks!

--
Mike Plemmons
mplemmons@ameritech.net
-------------- next part --------------

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.550 / Virus Database: 342 - Release Date: 12/9/2003
From rfunk at funknet.net  Tue Dec  9 22:46:47 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <2808.24.123.50.150.1070898842.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
	<2808.24.123.50.150.1070898842.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <200312092246.47714.rfunk@funknet.net>

Josh Glover wrote:
> Great post, Jess! Your reasons for using Java are good.

This is not a slight against Jess or Java, but it seems like Java has its 
own completely separate world, with all sorts of names for things that 
mean nothing (at least, nothing technical) to those outside the Java 
world.  Or maybe it's the OOP world.... But there are lots of technical 
concepts (MVC?) that non-Java people have probably never heard of, and 
lots of project names (Tapestry?) that mean nothing to outsiders.

Of course, Unix/Linux itself has that same sort of thing, but there's not 
as much overlap between the the Unix/Linux world and the Java/OOP world 
as there is between the Unix/Linux world and, say, the Perl world.

> On a related note, anyone doing web application development in Perl
> should check out HTML::Template[1], in that it does a great job of
> separating content from code. The HTML::Template::JIT module on the
> same page looks really neat. I must play with that! :)

There's also the Template Toolkit, which I've been working with lately.
  http://www.template-toolkit.org/
I'm anxiously awaiting the book on it coming any day now.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From jhf at rivenstone.net  Wed Dec 10 02:12:58 2003
From: jhf at rivenstone.net (Joseph Fannin)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:32:59 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <200312091926.06141.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<200312082224.57707.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
	<1070977806.1145.23.camel@ra-blitz>
	<200312091926.06141.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031210071258.GA6758@rivenstone.net>

On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 07:26:05PM -0500, Dave Maxwell wrote:
> On Tuesday 09 December 2003 08:50 am, Patrick Blitz wrote:
>  
> >
> > on a whole other note...
> > does RR change IP's now from time to time?
> > my connection over at Dublin had for the whole 9 months i was there the
> > same IP...
> 
> In both places, I've had the same IP for months and months.
> Obviously, when I moved to Centerburg I got a new IP but it's been the
> same since last September.  Every once in a blue moon my IP will
> change.  The longest I ever had an IP last was 9 months.
 
    The cable modem is more or less transparent networkwise, so RR's
DHCP servers tend to remember the MAC address on the NIC in your
computer unless you are disconnected for a long time.  I've "shopped"
for IP addresses before by swapping out NICs until I got an IP I liked
(not in 24/8); when I put a card back in that had been in before I
got the corresponding IP back.

    In other words, I think it's just the way the DHCP servers work;
they keep a record of your DHCP lease (with your MAC) around for a
couple of days and try to give you the same address.

    The vertical beige modems bind themselves to your MAC addy too --
they'll learn your MAC and refuse to talk to any other until they're
reset.  The $9.95 a month RR charges for additional IPs gets you
another MAC address your cable modem won't ignore.

    This is what comes to my mind when I hear about someone not being
able to get an IP address after some change -- if your MAC address
changes because you swapped the NIC or computer or something you have
to unplug the modem long enough that it forgets the old one.

    Okay, I've spent too long dinking with the thing, I admit it.

-- 
Joseph Fannin
jhf@rivenstone.net

"Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot." -- Rusty Russell.
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From nliu99 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 10:44:06 2003
From: nliu99 at yahoo.com (Nan Liu)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <200312080324.hB83OI8t002945@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <20031210154406.58398.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com>

> I do feel, however, that PHP4, like many younger pieces of software,
> has its share of drawbacks. One of the biggest is the lack of 
> something like
> CPAN--a highly organised, easy to access collection of "modules" or
> "libraries" (whichever nomenclature you prefer), that can be easily
> plugged into applications to save even more develment time. 

I believe this is addressed by PEAR (pear.php.net). 

> Another is performance.
> To me, having to use single-quotes to avoid the penalty that PHP4's
> string  interpolation implementation encurs is, for lack of a better
> word, gross. Note that Perl had this problem as well, but solved it
> somewhere around 5.0.

I think this is like saying C is "gross" because you have to manage
your memory, while Java is cool because the garbage collection does the
work for you. Yes, what you are saying is true; No, I do not see it as
a weakness of PHP. Like any language, bad code gives you bad
performance, and the programmer needs to understand nuances that impact
performance. 

It's not free, but zend (http://www.zend.com/) will give you some extra
performance if your application really needs it.

> Another issue is PHP4's database support. It is actually great, and a
> joy to work with--until your web application has to support multiple
> database  backends. The PHP library for accessing an Oracle database 
> is different enough from the MySQL library to make porting a PHP4 
> app to a different database quite a chore. Contrast this to Perl's 
> DBI/DBD library.

If you look at the DB module in PEAR, it resolves this issue plus more.
Quote: DB layers itself on top of PHP's existing database extensions.
The currently supported extensions are: dbase, fbsql, interbase,
informix, msql, mssql, mysql, oci8, odbc, pgsql, sqlite and sybase (DB
style interfaces to LDAP servers and MS ADO (using COM) are also
avaible from a separate package).

> And finally, the point that you have contested the most, is that I
> have
> *seen* that PHP4 has some scalability issues, as described by Doug
> Hawkins: http://www.colug.net/pipermail/colug/2003-July/008012.html

A counter article from Orielly:
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/10/15/php_scalability.html

Quote ariticle: "Still not convinced? Consider JSR 223, the effort to
turn PHP into the front end for J2EE by porting it to Java. If PHP on
top of Java is scalable, then why isn't PHP on top of C?"

Nan
From colug at jmglov.net  Wed Dec 10 11:59:04 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
Message-ID: <2774.24.123.50.150.1071075544.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth Nan Liu

>> Another is performance.
>> To me, having to use single-quotes to avoid the penalty that PHP4's string 
interpolation implementation encurs is, for lack of a better word, gross.
Note that Perl had this problem as well, but solved it somewhere around
5.0.
>
> I think this is like saying C is "gross" because you have to manage your
memory, while Java is cool because the garbage collection does the work for
you. Yes, what you are saying is true; No, I do not see it as a weakness of
PHP. Like any language, bad code gives you bad
> performance, and the programmer needs to understand nuances that impact
performance.

I agree with you to a point, but too many nuances doth a right royal mess make.

Code that looks like this is just terrible to read:

print 'Blah blah blah, no variables here, PHP... '.
      "but now pay attention, because here comes one: $one\n";

Not only does readability suffer, but so does maintainability, as you have to
make sure to convert your single quotes to double if you stick a variable in
the first line. Sounds simple in theory, but in practise, no so much.

So I am not saying that C is gross because you have to manage your own memory.
However, if you are writing something even moderately complex in C, you
probably need functions to abstract away the malloc() and calloc() calls. I.e.
instead of :

char *foo = malloc( SIZEOF_FOO );

you probably want a typedef and something like:

Foo *foo;

if ((foo = NewFoo()) == NULL)
  return -1;

So, C can be gross if mismanaged, but lets you do a hell of a lot to produce
readable code. Most people just don't seem to see the benefits.

>> And finally, the point that you have contested the most, is that I have
*seen* that PHP4 has some scalability issues, as described by Doug Hawkins:
http://www.colug.net/pipermail/colug/2003-July/008012.html
>
> A counter article from Orielly:
> http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/10/15/php_scalability.html
>
> Quote ariticle: "Still not convinced? Consider JSR 223, the effort to turn
PHP into the front end for J2EE by porting it to Java. If PHP on top of Java
is scalable, then why isn't PHP on top of C?"

Scalability and performance, while related, are not the same thing. This
article claims mainly that PHP *performs* as well as Java. This I believe.
This article, however, does not talk about the kind of issues that are truly
related to scalability. The above is one case in point: dealing with
application / session state can get quite out of hand, and problems with the
engine did not allow decent performance under a heavy load on the database.

It is important to note that I am not advocating Java over PHP, or even Perl
over PHP. I am pointing out issues that I know about with PHP. Any choice of
language carries the baggage of understanding the limitations and shortcomings
of that language, as well as what said language does well. The way to leverage
your tool is to use it in such a way that strengths are emphasised while
weaknesses are minimised.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103) gpg
--keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From JBalint at alldata.net  Wed Dec 10 14:12:58 2003
From: JBalint at alldata.net (Balint, Jess)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
Message-ID: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAFBC@scad1exis02.alldata.net>

Well put. However, I don't see the relevance of how close language
terminology is to UNIX/Linux. I think Perl tends to be closer to standard
UNIX jargon because it is a utility language that is used on UNIX (and
Windows!) to implement smaller applications that rely heavily on the
underlying OS. I think Java/C++ tends not to care is because these languages
are used more often to implement larger applications where sometimes the OS
It will run on is the least of concerns. To put this all in contrast, I
think the following snippet from a recent post to the mod_perl user's list
might be appropriate:

> About a month ago, I was put on a project that was perl-based, but with no
> framework. As our GUI team develops mostly in java, and now mostly with
> struts, I came to love the MVC architecture. Simple to estimate, design,
and
> maintain. I loved struts mvc so much that I implemented a struts-like
> framework in plain old CGI. I used it for the perl project with great
> success: quick, modular development from the client to the API.

I find this relevant because even though Perl was being used to develop a
web-application, there is nothing UNIX-like about it. So it's not just the
language that is akin to UNIX or OOP, but also the application of it. The
reason I found it justifiable to post things that I did was because the
discussion started as a comparison/opion on languages.

~ Jess

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colug-bounces@colug.net 
> [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net]On Behalf
> Of Rob Funk
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 10:47 PM
> To: Central OH Linux User Group
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] It's all in the name
> 
> 
> Josh Glover wrote:
> > Great post, Jess! Your reasons for using Java are good.
> 
> This is not a slight against Jess or Java, but it seems like 
> Java has its 
> own completely separate world, with all sorts of names for 
> things that 
> mean nothing (at least, nothing technical) to those outside the Java 
> world.  Or maybe it's the OOP world.... But there are lots of 
> technical 
> concepts (MVC?) that non-Java people have probably never 
> heard of, and 
> lots of project names (Tapestry?) that mean nothing to outsiders.
> 
> Of course, Unix/Linux itself has that same sort of thing, but 
> there's not 
> as much overlap between the the Unix/Linux world and the 
> Java/OOP world 
> as there is between the Unix/Linux world and, say, the Perl world.
> 
> > On a related note, anyone doing web application development in Perl
> > should check out HTML::Template[1], in that it does a great job of
> > separating content from code. The HTML::Template::JIT module on the
> > same page looks really neat. I must play with that! :)
> 
> There's also the Template Toolkit, which I've been working 
> with lately.
>   http://www.template-toolkit.org/
> I'm anxiously awaiting the book on it coming any day now.
> 
> -- 
> ==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
>  Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
>  http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"
> 
> 
From rfunk at funknet.net  Wed Dec 10 14:43:08 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAFBC@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
References: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAFBC@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
Message-ID: <200312101443.08814.rfunk@funknet.net>

Balint, Jess wrote:
> Well put. However, I don't see the relevance of how close language
> terminology is to UNIX/Linux.

The relevance is that the people on this list are, almost by definition, 
familiar with Linux on some level.  But the language concepts and projects 
aren't quite so universal, and it's helpful for all of us to keep that in 
mind.

> I think Perl tends to be closer to
> standard UNIX jargon because it is a utility language that is used on
> UNIX (and Windows!) to implement smaller applications that rely heavily
> on the underlying OS.

Yes.  I mentioned Perl only as a point of contrast, not as advocacy.  Perl 
is native to Unix (despite now being used in Windows too) and therefore 
shares a lot of culture and terminology with Unix.

>  The reason I found it justifiable to post things that I did was
> because the discussion started as a comparison/opion on languages.

Certainly.  My post was more of a reaction to an overload of unfamiliar 
Java jargon.  And I'm happy to be enlightened about that Java jargon.  As 
I've said, I have a lot of respect for the Java language.

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 00:49:58 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <200312081141.hB8BfcI13679@srv45.cas.org>
References: <200312081141.hB8BfcI13679@srv45.cas.org>
Message-ID: <1071121798.2386.1.camel@linux.local>

On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 03:41, Mike Harrold wrote:
> > 
> > On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 16:42, Josh Glover wrote:
> > > Quoth Nick Comtois (Sat 2003-12-06 06:36:47PM -0800):
> > > 
> > > > what i mean to say is that C and C++ have relatively tons more in common
> > > > than other languages have in common with each other. eg perl and java or
> > > > C and php etc.
> > > 
> > > I would argue that C and Java have as much in common as C and C++.
> > syntax wise yes. Any other way no. C and C++ are both compiled into
> > binary java isn't. Java is just a really customizable program when you
> > get down to it.
> 
> I suspect you've never heard of gcj then?
nope, but let me guess it is an acronym based on gcc and it compiles
java into binary no? ok well that is not java in and of itself that
turns java SYNTAX into binary code.
> 
> /Mike
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 00:56:43 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <20031208133444.GB28522%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	 <1070878492.3114.138.camel@linux.local>
	 <20031208133444.GB28522%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1071122203.2386.7.camel@linux.local>

On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 05:34, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Nick Comtois (Mon 2003-12-08 02:14:52AM -0800):
> 
> > PERL has CPAN, C/C++ Have endless libraries for everything imaginable
> > and Java like php have everything built in. 
> 
> Yes, but there is no one-stop fix for C[++] libraries (and yes, here it
> makes sense to group C and C++ together ;) that is as well organised and
> as easy to use as CPAN.
> 
> > I don't think that PHP needs a CPAN and IF your needs are outside of the
> > rather large scope of what comes with PHP I DO think you should use PERL
> > or some other more widely aimed language.
> 
> I would say that nearly any language could benefit from something like
> CPAN. That is one of Perl's killer apps, dreaming up a great idea for a
> new application and being able to go to CPAN and pull down four or five
> (or fifty) modules that save you from having to code up feature X, Y, or
> Z. PHP does have a large standard library, that is true, but so does
> Perl. And there have been many times when I have come up empty while
> looking for a standard way to do things in both Perl and PHP. For Perl,
> I was able to leverage the code of hundreds of other Perl hackers around
> the globe, thanks to CPAN. For PHP, not so much. I am sure that Google
> can help you, and maybe in a year or so PEAR will have grown to a more
> useful size.
> 
> I would love something like CPAN for C[++]. It would be great to just
> run a commmand like "ccan -cpp -e 'install Net::SMTP'" to grab a SMTP
> class for C++.

Yes i agree veeerry much so. Us open sourcers have it a lot better than
the windows guys, as most of the libraries we need are freely and openly
available still we are stuck going to each vendor to get those
libraries. Like i mentioned earlier everything from sqlite to Qt or GTK+
or whatever which is somewhat annoying. 
> 
> > If you really need something crazy try the C interface to CGI (i would
> > love to hear of anyone's experience with that)
> 
> I used a CGI library for C++ a few years back while working for Tovaris.
> [1] I must say that C or C++ (or any other compiled) language is probably
> not what you want for web applications. At least, not without a massive
> reorientation of the web development process.
> 
> First of all, most web design is done using a very large number of small
> iterations of code, test, code, test... and so on. A compiled language
> does not lend itself as well to this, as you have to wait for the compiler
> every time.
> 
> Secondly, web applications tend to involve a good bit of text processing,
> something that Perl and PHP (basically any language with native support
> for PCREs) do much better than C[++]. And let's face it, Perl is still
> king when it comes to regexps--being able to say:
> 
> $str =~ /^.*(foo)\s*$/;
> my $foo = $1;
> 
> is easier even than the PHP equivalent:
> 
> pcre_match( '/^.*(foo)\s*$/', $str, $matches );
> $foo = $matches[0];

COMPLETELY off topic here but do you know of any good cheat sheet
desktop reference type things that are really thorough for regexp's?
> 
> But PHP is better (and here I mean, easier) than most languages for text
> processing since you do not have to compile the regexp ahead of time.

Indeed one of my favorite features to php is that you can call on any
function available without having to include or otherwise reference to
what individual library you will be using.  
> 
> -Josh
> 
> [1] http://www.tovaris.com/

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 01:06:18 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
References: 
	 <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
Message-ID: <1071122777.2387.16.camel@linux.local>

I am sure that java does all of these things better than anything else
(no sarcasm intended, seriously) I personally have never come across any
of those things, or maybe i have and just worked through them with php
or C? In any case you are right i have never heard of AOP should i have?


On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 07:31, Balint, Jess wrote:
> Bah - I really dislike these discussions, but ....
> 
> > I have never meant anyone, ever, who has said they enjoy 
> > coding in java.
> 
> I TREMENDOUSLY ENJOY CODING IN JAVA.
> 
> I don't use Java small web apps, or PHP. I use perl w/DBI & CGI modules.
> It's just too easy. I also do systems programming in C. Java doesn't try to
> infringe upon it.
> 
> Here's why I use Java:
> 
> * Frameworks:
> 	MVC application frameworks like Struts, WebWork, Tapestry, Maverick.
> I believe MVC was first implemented in smalltalk applications. It aims to
> seperate workflow from presentation from application logic. Now how does PHP
> do that?
> 	Object persistance frameworks like Hibernate, Torque, OJB. Basically
> object relational mapping (ORM) is used to map objects to database tables so
> to pull 15 fields out and set state to an object, you don't need 15
> setThis() and setThat() calls. I know at least Hibernate has built-in
> support for connection pooling, and you can plug any connection pool library
> you want in place of it. I have yet to see anything like this for PHP.
> 	Testing frameworks like JUnit are the most basic support for unit
> testing. Cactus is a "live" web application testing framework and has
> extensions such as StrutsTest for testing struts. Where does PHP sit now?
> 
> * Native Cutting Edge Features:
> 	Java already has at least three different aspect oriented
> programming (AOP) extensions. I bet most PHP programmer's have yet to even
> hear of AOP (not a diss).
> 	RMI and CORBA in the default JDK. Need I say more?
> 
> * Tools:
> 	Build tools like Ant and Maven that support unit testing and
> continuous integration. I firmly believe in the capabilites of make, but
> goes much further and it's easier to keep just one build file for the whole
> project.
> 	XDoclet is basically a code (among others) generation engine that
> code generate stub/skeleton code for EJBs, Struts configuration files,
> deployment descriptors, web service definitions and other things. Hrmmm....
> I guess PHP wouldn't really need anything like that.
> 
> There are tons of other reasons!, and some great OSS IDE's including Eclipse
> and NetBeans.
> 
> Here are links to things mentioned:
> 
> Struts: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/
> WebWork: http://www.opensymphony.com/webwork/
> Tapestry: http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry/
> Maverick: http://mav.sourceforge.net/
> Hibernate: http://www.hibernate.org/
> Torque: http://db.apache.org/torque/
> OJB: http://db.apache.org/ojb/
> JUnit: http://junit.org/index.htm
> Cactus: http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/
> AOP: AspectJ: http://eclipse.org/aspectj/ AspectWerkz:
> http://aspectwerkz.codehaus.org/ Nanning: http://nanning.codehaus.org/
> Ant: http://ant.apache.org/
> Maven: http://maven.apache.org/
> XDoclet: http://xdoclet.sourceforge.net/
> 
> ~ Jess
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: colug-bounces@colug.net 
> > [mailto:colug-bounces@colug.net]On Behalf
> > Of Nick Comtois
> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:13 PM
> > To: Central OH Linux User Group
> > Subject: Re: [COLUG] It's all in the name
> > 
> > 
> > I think we are digging to deep here and are getting sidetracked. My
> > opinion on Java is simple. I don't want to write in it. And i 
> > don't want
> > to use any program written in it when i could use a C/C++ 
> > version. I am
> > sure that C is very different when you get down to it than C++ I am
> > talking about higher level application development. 
> > 
> > It doesn't surprise me that you do most of your coding in C it is the
> > superior language!!!!!!! I though that is what i had been 
> > saying! Think
> > overall i mean of course you could say well java does this and then i
> > could point you to this project or this benchmark or this 
> > site, we could
> > do that for years. I use C you use C i run programs written 
> > in C before
> > Java I think that speaks it all. 
> > 
> > I have never meant anyone, ever, who has said they enjoy 
> > coding in java.
> > I am sure it has value. For me it is not enough to convince me to code
> > or use any java product. 
> > 
> > I wanted to make that point again about it all being personal
> > preference. I bet that there is some webserver out there that 
> > churns out
> > this page this much faster using this language than this 
> > other webserver
> > running this... etc. etc. etc. I have found it interesting to hear
> > Josh's views i really have and want to thank him for responding and
> > provoking intelligent debate. Anyone else have any opinions? What does
> > everyone else use in their development life?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:49, Josh Glover wrote:
> > > Quoth manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com
> > > 
> > > > If you are an IT manager i will just shit myself. I was 
> > talking to a developer
> > > > friend of mine who complained that it is so easy to sell 
> > Java to a manager
> > > > because of what it promises. Devolopment DOES take 
> > longer, there was an
> > > > article a while back where a professor at MIT had his 
> > class seperate into
> > > > groups to make basically a website, each group choose 
> > different tools, think
> > > > php asp javapages via jakarta the jakarta team didn't 
> > even get their page
> > > > working and failed while everyone else was working on 
> > making everything look
> > > > good.
> > > 
> > > I think that all this proves is that there is a steeper 
> > learning curve to
> > > Tomcat, which I readily admit. However, as with other 
> > things with steep
> > > learning  curves (e.g. Unix), there are some benefits to 
> > those who are willing
> > > to invest the ramp-up time.
> > > 
> > > And I am certainly not an IT manager, or any other sort of 
> > manager. I love the
> > > coding too much for that.
> > > 
> > > > Java programs like limewire make my p4 1.8ghz look like 
> > my old 450mhz machine,
> > > > sure it might be ok on the command line but in that case 
> > why not use something
> > > > else?
> > > 
> > > Java has a big memory footprint, but I don't find it much 
> > *slower* in practise
> > > than many C++ applications (oh yes, C++ is slower than C in 
> > most cases, there
> > > is another difference), especially with 1.4's NIO stuff.
> > > 
> > > > I don't think that you can say that C/C++ are different 
> > beasts. A valid C
> > > > program is a valid C++ program.
> > > 
> > > But the inverse does not hold, and hence my point. C++ 
> > introduces some
> > > abiguity into the C grammar. In fact, it is possible to 
> > represent C's grammar
> > > entirely in BNF notation (and thus use a parse generator on 
> > it), which it is
> > > not possible for C++.
> > > 
> > > C is a systems programming language, and, as one of my 
> > professors memorably
> > > said, C++ is a systems programming language with OOP tumors 
> > grafted on.
> > > 
> > > This is not to say that I do not think C++ is a good 
> > language, I am just
> > > trying to emphasis that the two languages are more 
> > different than popularly
> > > believed.
> > > 
> > > > I actually find the "unwieldy" amount of Java libraries 
> > one of the only
> > > > comforts of coding in it.
> > > 
> > > The libraries, as I said, are unwieldy to the uninitiated, 
> > a boon once learned.
> > > 
> > > >> Hrm, this claim does not seem to hold much water. I 
> > would say that Java
> > > >> excels at serious enterprise apps, due to:
> > > >>
> > > >> a) its excellent scalability
> > > >> b) the great deployment and testing tools that exists 
> > (such as Ant and
> > > >>    JMeter)
> > > >> c) Javadoc, which makes it easy to generate API 
> > documentation on the fly
> > > >
> > > > Doxygen, Electricfence, etc and are you saying that C 
> > wouldn't be even more
> > > > scalable if you know what you are doing.
> > > 
> > > No, I was not saying that C is not scalable, nor that it 
> > does not possess
> > > these other qualities. Though actually, C comes nowhere 
> > near Java when it
> > > comes to (b). Sure, there are tools like ElectricFence, the 
> > wonderful
> > > Valgrind[1], and UVA's Splint[2], but there exist no 
> > automated testing
> > > frameworks like JMeter.
> > > 
> > > It may (or may not) surprise you to learn that I do most of 
> > my coding in C,
> > > due to the fact that most of what I do is systems 
> > programming. It may surprise
> > > you further to learn that I dislike programming in Java, 
> > and dislike Java's
> > > position as the All-Purpose Language du Jour if you believe 
> > the hype. However,
> > > as I said before, I don't like to write off languages when 
> > it is clear that
> > > they have value.
> > > 
> > > > I don't take it as a personal attack at all. Same goes 
> > for what I say to you.
> > > > If either of us could say "hey you're absolutely right" 
> > then java or C
> > > > development would stop altogether and everyone would use 
> > the other.
> > > 
> > > I don't see how C and Java are in competition. C is clearly 
> > better for some
> > > things, and Java clearly better for others. As Perl is 
> > clearly better for
> > > others entirely, and Python... and so on, ad nauseum.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Josh
> > > 
> > > [1] http://valgrind.kde.org/
> > > [2] http://www.splint.org/
> > 
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 01:10:28 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
	<1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>
Message-ID: <1071123028.2386.20.camel@linux.local>

On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 15:32, Stephen J. Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > customers would get annoyed...
> > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> 
> I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> 
> Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.

I have read a somewhat lengthy article/essay/rant on how many ISP's
claim that your computer cannot act as a server and how ridiculous that
is. What could you do on the internet besides read email and surf that
didn't involve you supplying information. The definition of server
encompasses way to much to be ruled out besides what do they care? I pay
for my bandwidth!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 01:14:12 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<1070764585.3895.5.camel@ra-blitz>
	<1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>

On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 18:50, Mike Plemmons wrote:
> At 06:32 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> >
> >I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> >agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> >running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> >RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> >
> >Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> >not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> >terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> >is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> 
> RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server 
> they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a 
> friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a 
> server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall 
> that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course, 
> you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away 
> with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open 
> relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.
> 
> I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a 
> binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you 
> agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every 
> offender, that is a different story.

Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> 
> --
> Mike Plemmons
> mplemmons@ameritech.net
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Wed Dec 10 22:31:54 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071123028.2386.20.camel@linux.local>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
	 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>
	 <1071123028.2386.20.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071113513.2218.3.camel@linux.local>

Sort of reminds me of all the folks that would complain if you left your
dialup connected 24/7.  I agree, I am paying for 24/7 service but the
ISPs would really not want everyone tieing up their banks of modems by
being connected for a month solid.  I am paying for that if I desire to
do that.  The more Social part of me says "share the modem". 

Sean

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 01:10, Nick Comtois wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 15:32, Stephen J. Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> > 
> > I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> > agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> > running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> > RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> > 
> > Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> > not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> > terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> > is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> 
> I have read a somewhat lengthy article/essay/rant on how many ISP's
> claim that your computer cannot act as a server and how ridiculous that
> is. What could you do on the internet besides read email and surf that
> didn't involve you supplying information. The definition of server
> encompasses way to much to be ruled out besides what do they care? I pay
> for my bandwidth!!!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 01:22:50 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <200312092246.47714.rfunk@funknet.net>
References: 
	 <5789A42DD684734298BF9EC852D35111033AAF9A@scad1exis02.alldata.net>
	 <2808.24.123.50.150.1070898842.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	 <200312092246.47714.rfunk@funknet.net>
Message-ID: <1071123770.2387.30.camel@linux.local>

On Tue, 2003-12-09 at 19:46, Rob Funk wrote:
> Josh Glover wrote:
> > Great post, Jess! Your reasons for using Java are good.
> 
> This is not a slight against Jess or Java, but it seems like Java has its 
> own completely separate world, with all sorts of names for things that 
> mean nothing (at least, nothing technical) to those outside the Java 
> world.  Or maybe it's the OOP world.... But there are lots of technical 
> concepts (MVC?) that non-Java people have probably never heard of, and 
> lots of project names (Tapestry?) that mean nothing to outsiders.

I agree 111% and think is more than the names it is like a completely
different state of mind. I hate to bring up something that could be
considered so juvenile but i think it is a fitting analogy. It is like
xbox and playstation2 gamers. To everyone else it would seem that a
video game is a video game yet the two groups look at gaming a
completely different way (gaming == programming, xbox==non-java people
forget the microsoft here no underlying tone there, and playstation2 is
like the Java people)
> 
> Of course, Unix/Linux itself has that same sort of thing, but there's not 
> as much overlap between the the Unix/Linux world and the Java/OOP world 
> as there is between the Unix/Linux world and, say, the Perl world.

Yes continuing my above analogy the Xbox(non-java people) use standard
parts, standard ethernet, harddrive, nvidia graphics card etc. while
playstation2 uses it's own homebrewed graphics card, processor, memory
card etc. Just something to chew on if you like video games. 
> 
> > On a related note, anyone doing web application development in Perl
> > should check out HTML::Template[1], in that it does a great job of
> > separating content from code. The HTML::Template::JIT module on the
> > same page looks really neat. I must play with that! :)
> 
> There's also the Template Toolkit, which I've been working with lately.
>   http://www.template-toolkit.org/
> I'm anxiously awaiting the book on it coming any day now.

From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Wed Dec 10 22:35:11 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
	<1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071113710.2217.7.camel@linux.local>

On top of which, they probably get more than their share of folks that
don't really know what a server is, asking all sorts of odd questions. 
He probably filtered out the server part and just heard there might be
an outage.

Sean

> Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
> reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
> hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
> getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
> asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
> Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
> beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> > 
> > --
> > Mike Plemmons
> > mplemmons@ameritech.net
> > 
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> > 
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 01:26:14 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:00 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <20031210071258.GA6758@rivenstone.net>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <200312082224.57707.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
	 <1070977806.1145.23.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <200312091926.06141.dmaxwell@columbus.rr.com>
	 <20031210071258.GA6758@rivenstone.net>
Message-ID: <1071123974.2387.34.camel@linux.local>

On Tue, 2003-12-09 at 23:12, Joseph Fannin wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 07:26:05PM -0500, Dave Maxwell wrote:
> > On Tuesday 09 December 2003 08:50 am, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> >  
> > >
> > > on a whole other note...
> > > does RR change IP's now from time to time?
> > > my connection over at Dublin had for the whole 9 months i was there the
> > > same IP...
> > 
> > In both places, I've had the same IP for months and months.
> > Obviously, when I moved to Centerburg I got a new IP but it's been the
> > same since last September.  Every once in a blue moon my IP will
> > change.  The longest I ever had an IP last was 9 months.
>  
>     The cable modem is more or less transparent networkwise, so RR's
> DHCP servers tend to remember the MAC address on the NIC in your
> computer unless you are disconnected for a long time.  I've "shopped"
> for IP addresses before by swapping out NICs until I got an IP I liked
> (not in 24/8); when I put a card back in that had been in before I
> got the corresponding IP back.
> 
>     In other words, I think it's just the way the DHCP servers work;
> they keep a record of your DHCP lease (with your MAC) around for a
> couple of days and try to give you the same address.
> 
>     The vertical beige modems bind themselves to your MAC addy too --
> they'll learn your MAC and refuse to talk to any other until they're
> reset.  The $9.95 a month RR charges for additional IPs gets you
> another MAC address your cable modem won't ignore.
> 
>     This is what comes to my mind when I hear about someone not being
> able to get an IP address after some change -- if your MAC address
> changes because you swapped the NIC or computer or something you have
> to unplug the modem long enough that it forgets the old one.
> 
>     Okay, I've spent too long dinking with the thing, I admit it.

I am sitting here imagining a computer open with nic's strewn across the
floor and that sweet smell of fresh open computer filling the room. I
personally would have turned on mac emulation in my router and changed
some digits.

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 01:32:31 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071113513.2218.3.camel@linux.local>
References: <61dd26171e.6171e61dd2@columbus.rr.com>
	 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070926336.2235.9.camel@cobra.khadrin.com>
	 <1071123028.2386.20.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071113513.2218.3.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071124351.2387.37.camel@linux.local>

PLEASE correct me if i am wrong, i **THINK** our bandwidth is capped. If
so then i will use it til' my ears pop out. I like to make webpages,
simple as that, i like to design and to do some php work i think it is
fun and i want to share that work with people, i am not talking about
anything over a few hits a day, i think to say that you can't run a
server is kind of harsh.

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 19:31, Sean McHenry wrote:
> Sort of reminds me of all the folks that would complain if you left your
> dialup connected 24/7.  I agree, I am paying for 24/7 service but the
> ISPs would really not want everyone tieing up their banks of modems by
> being connected for a month solid.  I am paying for that if I desire to
> do that.  The more Social part of me says "share the modem". 
> 
> Sean
> 
> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 01:10, Nick Comtois wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 15:32, Stephen J. Smith wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> > > 
> > > I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> > > agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> > > running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> > > RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> > > 
> > > Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> > > not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> > > terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> > > is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> > 
> > I have read a somewhat lengthy article/essay/rant on how many ISP's
> > claim that your computer cannot act as a server and how ridiculous that
> > is. What could you do on the internet besides read email and surf that
> > didn't involve you supplying information. The definition of server
> > encompasses way to much to be ruled out besides what do they care? I pay
> > for my bandwidth!!!!!!!!!!
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 01:40:37 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071113710.2217.7.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
	 <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071113710.2217.7.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071124837.2387.41.camel@linux.local>

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 19:35, Sean McHenry wrote:
> On top of which, they probably get more than their share of folks that
> don't really know what a server is, asking all sorts of odd questions. 
> He probably filtered out the server part and just heard there might be
> an outage.
> 
> Sean

Good Point, seriously you should have heard the awkward silence when i
called once and the rep said "Ok i need to get your ip address, so click
on start..." "uhh i don't use windows i am on a linux machine"    Of
course it wasn't hard for me to find out my ip address without his
assistance ;) not that it helped.
> 
> > Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
> > reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
> > hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
> > getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
> > asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
> > Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
> > beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Mike Plemmons
> > > mplemmons@ameritech.net
> > > 
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> > > 
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From eliddle at ameritech.net  Wed Dec 10 22:58:37 2003
From: eliddle at ameritech.net (Ed Liddle)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
	<1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071115117.2798.22.camel@linux.local>

I know this isn't really a "security" issue, but after reading the last
reply, figured I'd tell about my experience with tech support and the
"having problems" response.
When I had roadrunner with insight cable a couple years back, I had a
connection problem. I couldn't connect to the internet at all with the
cable modem. I called their tech support 3  different times. The first
2  times after completing their "reset routine" each time, I was told
that there was a problem in my area with service. The last time I
called, the person I talked to said there wasn't any problems in my area
and wasn't when I called the previous time. He scheduled a tech to come
out. When the tech from cable express got there, he went outside and
removed a filter off the line that the cable company put on and walah it
worked ! 

Earlier this year I was having problems with my SBC DSL modem connecting
at night. After 3 calls and hearing they were experienceing problems in
my area with the first call I made to their tech support, I finally
talked to a technician that actually knew something. It turned out the
halogen style flood light bulbs I put in my flood light outside was the
culprate! As soon as I turned them off it worked fine. He said that
sometimes they have problems with halogen type street lights effecting
dsl. 

Based on my experiences with the 2 tech support needs, I figure on
having to call 3 times before I get to talk to anyone with the knowlege
to solve the problems, along with hearing at least once that they are
experiencing problems in my area. 



On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 01:14, Nick Comtois wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 18:50, Mike Plemmons wrote:
> > At 06:32 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > 
> > >On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> > >
> > >I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> > >agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> > >running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> > >RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> > >
> > >Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> > >not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> > >terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> > >is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> > 
> > RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server 
> > they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a 
> > friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a 
> > server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall 
> > that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course, 
> > you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away 
> > with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open 
> > relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.
> > 
> > I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a 
> > binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you 
> > agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every 
> > offender, that is a different story.
> 
> Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
> reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
> hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
> getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
> asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
> Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
> beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> > 
> > --
> > Mike Plemmons
> > mplemmons@ameritech.net
> > 
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> > 
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
-- 
Ed Liddle

Got Linux ? 

From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Wed Dec 10 23:11:21 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071115117.2798.22.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
	 <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071115117.2798.22.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071115881.2217.51.camel@linux.local>

Wow, I never heard about the apparent RF leakage from Halogen lamps. 
Odd, As an Amateur Radio operator, I have never heard that about those
lamps.  I do know that the cable company amplifiers spit out some really
nasty "birdys" on some of the lower frequencies.  I'll keep that in the
back of my mind.

Sean

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 22:58, Ed Liddle wrote:
> I know this isn't really a "security" issue, but after reading the last
> reply, figured I'd tell about my experience with tech support and the
> "having problems" response.
> When I had roadrunner with insight cable a couple years back, I had a
> connection problem. I couldn't connect to the internet at all with the
> cable modem. I called their tech support 3  different times. The first
> 2  times after completing their "reset routine" each time, I was told
> that there was a problem in my area with service. The last time I
> called, the person I talked to said there wasn't any problems in my area
> and wasn't when I called the previous time. He scheduled a tech to come
> out. When the tech from cable express got there, he went outside and
> removed a filter off the line that the cable company put on and walah it
> worked ! 
> 
> Earlier this year I was having problems with my SBC DSL modem connecting
> at night. After 3 calls and hearing they were experienceing problems in
> my area with the first call I made to their tech support, I finally
> talked to a technician that actually knew something. It turned out the
> halogen style flood light bulbs I put in my flood light outside was the
> culprate! As soon as I turned them off it worked fine. He said that
> sometimes they have problems with halogen type street lights effecting
> dsl. 
> 
> Based on my experiences with the 2 tech support needs, I figure on
> having to call 3 times before I get to talk to anyone with the knowlege
> to solve the problems, along with hearing at least once that they are
> experiencing problems in my area. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 01:14, Nick Comtois wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 18:50, Mike Plemmons wrote:
> > > At 06:32 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > > 
> > > >On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> > > >
> > > >I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> > > >agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> > > >running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> > > >RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> > > >
> > > >Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> > > >not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> > > >terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> > > >is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> > > 
> > > RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server 
> > > they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a 
> > > friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a 
> > > server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall 
> > > that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course, 
> > > you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away 
> > > with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open 
> > > relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.
> > > 
> > > I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a 
> > > binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you 
> > > agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every 
> > > offender, that is a different story.
> > 
> > Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
> > reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
> > hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
> > getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
> > asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
> > Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
> > beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Mike Plemmons
> > > mplemmons@ameritech.net
> > > 
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> > > 
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 02:06:26 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071115117.2798.22.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
	 <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071115117.2798.22.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071126386.2387.46.camel@linux.local>

Lesson learned i guess! Halogen lights! that's classic, maybe someday a
terrorist attack will be to build a giant halogen light over a dsl
connection center? [hey it could work!]

Nick

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 19:58, Ed Liddle wrote:
> I know this isn't really a "security" issue, but after reading the last
> reply, figured I'd tell about my experience with tech support and the
> "having problems" response.
> When I had roadrunner with insight cable a couple years back, I had a
> connection problem. I couldn't connect to the internet at all with the
> cable modem. I called their tech support 3  different times. The first
> 2  times after completing their "reset routine" each time, I was told
> that there was a problem in my area with service. The last time I
> called, the person I talked to said there wasn't any problems in my area
> and wasn't when I called the previous time. He scheduled a tech to come
> out. When the tech from cable express got there, he went outside and
> removed a filter off the line that the cable company put on and walah it
> worked ! 
> 
> Earlier this year I was having problems with my SBC DSL modem connecting
> at night. After 3 calls and hearing they were experienceing problems in
> my area with the first call I made to their tech support, I finally
> talked to a technician that actually knew something. It turned out the
> halogen style flood light bulbs I put in my flood light outside was the
> culprate! As soon as I turned them off it worked fine. He said that
> sometimes they have problems with halogen type street lights effecting
> dsl. 
> 
> Based on my experiences with the 2 tech support needs, I figure on
> having to call 3 times before I get to talk to anyone with the knowlege
> to solve the problems, along with hearing at least once that they are
> experiencing problems in my area. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 01:14, Nick Comtois wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 18:50, Mike Plemmons wrote:
> > > At 06:32 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > > 
> > > >On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> > > >
> > > >I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> > > >agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> > > >running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> > > >RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> > > >
> > > >Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> > > >not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> > > >terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> > > >is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> > > 
> > > RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server 
> > > they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a 
> > > friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a 
> > > server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall 
> > > that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course, 
> > > you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away 
> > > with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open 
> > > relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.
> > > 
> > > I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a 
> > > binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you 
> > > agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every 
> > > offender, that is a different story.
> > 
> > Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
> > reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
> > hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
> > getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
> > asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
> > Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
> > beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Mike Plemmons
> > > mplemmons@ameritech.net
> > > 
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> > > 
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 02:07:55 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071115881.2217.51.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
	 <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071115117.2798.22.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071115881.2217.51.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071126475.2386.49.camel@linux.local>

Amateur radio? That sounds like fun, i have always been fascinated with
RF or anything having to do with signals. Especially CDMA/GSM type
stuff. Maybe you will know why they have you turn off cell phones in
planes or if there is no reason other than so you will use their
airphone?

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 20:11, Sean McHenry wrote:
> Wow, I never heard about the apparent RF leakage from Halogen lamps. 
> Odd, As an Amateur Radio operator, I have never heard that about those
> lamps.  I do know that the cable company amplifiers spit out some really
> nasty "birdys" on some of the lower frequencies.  I'll keep that in the
> back of my mind.
> 
> Sean
> 
> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 22:58, Ed Liddle wrote:
> > I know this isn't really a "security" issue, but after reading the last
> > reply, figured I'd tell about my experience with tech support and the
> > "having problems" response.
> > When I had roadrunner with insight cable a couple years back, I had a
> > connection problem. I couldn't connect to the internet at all with the
> > cable modem. I called their tech support 3  different times. The first
> > 2  times after completing their "reset routine" each time, I was told
> > that there was a problem in my area with service. The last time I
> > called, the person I talked to said there wasn't any problems in my area
> > and wasn't when I called the previous time. He scheduled a tech to come
> > out. When the tech from cable express got there, he went outside and
> > removed a filter off the line that the cable company put on and walah it
> > worked ! 
> > 
> > Earlier this year I was having problems with my SBC DSL modem connecting
> > at night. After 3 calls and hearing they were experienceing problems in
> > my area with the first call I made to their tech support, I finally
> > talked to a technician that actually knew something. It turned out the
> > halogen style flood light bulbs I put in my flood light outside was the
> > culprate! As soon as I turned them off it worked fine. He said that
> > sometimes they have problems with halogen type street lights effecting
> > dsl. 
> > 
> > Based on my experiences with the 2 tech support needs, I figure on
> > having to call 3 times before I get to talk to anyone with the knowlege
> > to solve the problems, along with hearing at least once that they are
> > experiencing problems in my area. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 01:14, Nick Comtois wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 18:50, Mike Plemmons wrote:
> > > > At 06:32 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > >On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > > > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > > > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > > > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> > > > >
> > > > >I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> > > > >agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> > > > >running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> > > > >RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> > > > >
> > > > >Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> > > > >not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> > > > >terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> > > > >is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> > > > 
> > > > RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server 
> > > > they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a 
> > > > friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a 
> > > > server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall 
> > > > that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course, 
> > > > you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away 
> > > > with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open 
> > > > relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.
> > > > 
> > > > I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a 
> > > > binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you 
> > > > agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every 
> > > > offender, that is a different story.
> > > 
> > > Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
> > > reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
> > > hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
> > > getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
> > > asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
> > > Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
> > > beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > Mike Plemmons
> > > > mplemmons@ameritech.net
> > > > 
> > > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > ---
> > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> > > > 
> > > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > colug mailing list
> > > > colug@colug.net
> > > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Wed Dec 10 23:31:41 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071126475.2386.49.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <5.1.0.14.0.20031208214626.00babb28@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
	 <1071123251.2387.24.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071115117.2798.22.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071115881.2217.51.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071126475.2386.49.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071117101.2217.62.camel@linux.local>

By the way, I was with VoiceStream.  Had a GREAT Ericsson T-28 phone
(look them up on the web) and the voice quality was superb.  And from a
phone smaller than nearly anything out there still.  My V-10 on Verizon
sucks by comparison.  How long have you other cell phone users been
putting up with dropped connections and echos?  These things are barely
usable.  If I wasn't locked into a contract I would gladly jump back to
Voicestream.  Why do I bring all this up?  They are GSM as I recall.

But I have again drifted from the topic of the thread.  I'm good at
that.

Sean

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 02:07, Nick Comtois wrote:
> Amateur radio? That sounds like fun, i have always been fascinated with
> RF or anything having to do with signals. Especially CDMA/GSM type
> stuff. Maybe you will know why they have you turn off cell phones in
> planes or if there is no reason other than so you will use their
> airphone?
> 
> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 20:11, Sean McHenry wrote:
> > Wow, I never heard about the apparent RF leakage from Halogen lamps. 
> > Odd, As an Amateur Radio operator, I have never heard that about those
> > lamps.  I do know that the cable company amplifiers spit out some really
> > nasty "birdys" on some of the lower frequencies.  I'll keep that in the
> > back of my mind.
> > 
> > Sean
> > 
> > On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 22:58, Ed Liddle wrote:
> > > I know this isn't really a "security" issue, but after reading the last
> > > reply, figured I'd tell about my experience with tech support and the
> > > "having problems" response.
> > > When I had roadrunner with insight cable a couple years back, I had a
> > > connection problem. I couldn't connect to the internet at all with the
> > > cable modem. I called their tech support 3  different times. The first
> > > 2  times after completing their "reset routine" each time, I was told
> > > that there was a problem in my area with service. The last time I
> > > called, the person I talked to said there wasn't any problems in my area
> > > and wasn't when I called the previous time. He scheduled a tech to come
> > > out. When the tech from cable express got there, he went outside and
> > > removed a filter off the line that the cable company put on and walah it
> > > worked ! 
> > > 
> > > Earlier this year I was having problems with my SBC DSL modem connecting
> > > at night. After 3 calls and hearing they were experienceing problems in
> > > my area with the first call I made to their tech support, I finally
> > > talked to a technician that actually knew something. It turned out the
> > > halogen style flood light bulbs I put in my flood light outside was the
> > > culprate! As soon as I turned them off it worked fine. He said that
> > > sometimes they have problems with halogen type street lights effecting
> > > dsl. 
> > > 
> > > Based on my experiences with the 2 tech support needs, I figure on
> > > having to call 3 times before I get to talk to anyone with the knowlege
> > > to solve the problems, along with hearing at least once that they are
> > > experiencing problems in my area. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 01:14, Nick Comtois wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 18:50, Mike Plemmons wrote:
> > > > > At 06:32 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > >On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 17:43, Patrick Blitz wrote:
> > > > > > > hehe, okay, i admit it wouldn't be a good idea, and you're right,
> > > > > > > customers would get annoyed...
> > > > > > > but hey, the Hotline-calls would be worth listening to :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I also think there are some rather silly restrictions in the license
> > > > > >agreement that I hope they never try to enforce.  Stuff about not
> > > > > >running servers and such.  (Caveat I have SBC DSL at the moment, maybe
> > > > > >RR's EULA isn't quite as silly.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Another point, who takes those EULAs seriously?  The average person can
> > > > > >not possibly be expected to read, understand, and agree/disagree to the
> > > > > >terms.  The companies have all the power in the relationship, and there
> > > > > >is none of the back and forth debate typical of a real contract.
> > > > > 
> > > > > RR does enforce the no server rule.  If they detect you running a server 
> > > > > they will contact you and tell you to take it down.  This happened to a 
> > > > > friend of mine.  I have SBC DSL too and they do not care if you run a 
> > > > > server.  I think one way around the RR server issue is to create a firewall 
> > > > > that drops any traffic that comes from the security IP block.  Of course, 
> > > > > you have to know what that is ahead of time but that may let you get away 
> > > > > with it.  This is all assuming that you do not get caught with some open 
> > > > > relay if you run a mail server or some other hole is found.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think the company can take the EULA very seriously.  It is still a 
> > > > > binding contract and you are obligated to follow by what it states if you 
> > > > > agree to it.  Now if they want to spend the time to go after every 
> > > > > offender, that is a different story.
> > > > 
> > > > Columbus RR doesn't care as far as i go. I called tech support for some
> > > > reason (probably service outage or something) my call started with "Ya
> > > > hi so i was trying to access my server from a friends house but i am not
> > > > getting any response is the service out in the area?" The customer rep
> > > > asked what area and said that they were having problems end of call.
> > > > Although i will admit that he probably didn't feel like going above and
> > > > beyond the call of duty for his employer.
> > > > > 
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mike Plemmons
> > > > > mplemmons@ameritech.net
> > > > > 
> > > > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/2003
> > > > > 
> > > > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > colug mailing list
> > > > > colug@colug.net
> > > > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > colug mailing list
> > > > colug@colug.net
> > > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From bob at disclosed.org  Thu Dec 11 04:51:11 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Lightweight File Manager (though my purpose is two-fold)
Message-ID: <20031211045111.6a211ea0.bob@disclosed.org>

Fold 1:  I was wondering what the Colug had as suggestions for a lightweight file manager (gui).  i'm looking for something gtk that plays well with freedesktop specs.  right now i'm using xffm, and it's pretty okay, but a little slow.

Fold 2:  I just started using Sylpheed-Claws, so I'm testing with an email send. :)

Thanks
Bob
From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec 11 07:53:10 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <1071122203.2386.7.camel@linux.local>
References: <20031208002727.GJ31816%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1070878492.3114.138.camel@linux.local>
	<20031208133444.GB28522%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1071122203.2386.7.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031211125310.GA32068%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Wed 2003-12-10 09:56:43PM -0800):

> COMPLETELY off topic here but do you know of any good cheat sheet
> desktop reference type things that are really thorough for regexp's?

O'Reilly's _Regular Expression Pocket Reference_ has served me well over the
years. Here is an Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/059600415X/qid=1071147127/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8296538-7084738?v=glance&s=books

Cheers,
Josh

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec 11 08:01:38 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <1071121798.2386.1.camel@linux.local>
References: <200312081141.hB8BfcI13679@srv45.cas.org>
	<1071121798.2386.1.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031211130138.GB32068%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Wed 2003-12-10 09:49:58PM -0800):

> On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 03:41, Mike Harrold wrote:
>
> > I suspect you've never heard of gcj then?
>
> nope, but let me guess it is an acronym based on gcc and it compiles
> java into binary no? ok well that is not java in and of itself that
> turns java SYNTAX into binary code.

GCC stands for the GNU Compiler Collection these days, since it contains
compilers for more than just C (back then, it was the GNU C Compiler--
same acronymn, different expansion--a very scalable acronymn, as it has
turned out). gcj is the GNU Compiler for Java.

I don't see how gcj is any less related to Java than gpp is to C++.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From smolnar at jadeinc.com  Thu Dec 11 07:43:08 2003
From: smolnar at jadeinc.com (Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:01 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Strange Problem
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031211074229.03447420@mail.jadeinc.com>

Prior to upgrading from v8.1 to v9 I was able to run ADT (AutoDock 
Tools).  ADT uses python.

When I attempt to run the program I get:

Run AutoDockTools from 
/usr/local/lib/CompChem/autodock/ADT/rel.1.1beta/share/li
b/python1.5/site-packages/AutoDockTools
Inconsistency detected by ld.so: ../sysdeps/generic/dl-tls.c: 72: 
_dl_next_tls_m
odid: Assertion `result <= _rtld_local._dl_tls_max_dtv_idx' failed!

Unfortunately, the authors of the program are not able to diagnose the 
problem.  My assumption is that I failed to install needed programs when I 
upgraded the distribution (it was a new unstall as I have never had any 
success with upgrading the entire platform).  However, I don't have the 
faintest idea as to what might be missing.

Any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.



Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.                     Life is a fuzzy set
Foundation for Chemistry                     Multivariant and stochastic
http://web.jadeinc.com/FoundationChem 

From nliu99 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 11:47:03 2003
From: nliu99 at yahoo.com (Nan Liu)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Re: Closing thoughts on PHP4 and web apps
In-Reply-To: <200312110319.hBB3Iv8t024970@stones.wcbe.org>
Message-ID: <20031211164703.47934.qmail@web80513.mail.yahoo.com>

> > A counter article from Orielly:
> > http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/10/15/php_scalability.html
> > 
> Scalability and performance, while related, are not the same thing.
> This article claims mainly that PHP *performs* as well as Java. This 
> I believe. This article, however, does not talk about the kind of 
> issues that are truly related to scalability. 

Maybe I'm reading a different article. In the article quoted above
performance was one of the issues addressed, but the title was "The PHP
Scalability Myth", and the first paragraph quote: 

"PHP scales. There, I said it. The word on the street is that "Java
scales and PHP doesn't." The word on the street is wrong, and PHP needs
someone to stand up and tell the truth: that it does scale."

> The above is one case in point: dealing with application / session 
> state can get quite out of hand, and problems with the
> engine did not allow decent performance under a heavy load on the
> database.

Regarding the first point, I've read the Douglas Hawkin's quote you
wrote in the colug mailing list. I'm not sure why he was serializing
and deserializing data to access them between apache children. If
someone gives me a practical example, maybe I'll understand it better.

Anyhow, PHP4 offers mechanism for managing client session state, via
the session_start(), session_register(), session_destroy() functions.
Some practical examples and technical explanations are freely available
online at Orielly: 

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/webdbapps/chapter/ch08.html

I'm not going to quote the whole chapter, but essentially creating a
persistent session variables is as easy as:

session_start();
session_register("foo");
$foo = 'anything';

Again, maybe we are reading a different article, in the PHP scalability
article the author was very clear regarding database performance
misnomers. Quote:

"Another area of performance concern is in the connection to the
database. This is a misnomer, however, as the majority of the time
spent in a database query is on the database server end, processing the
query, and the transmit time to marshal the data between the server and
the client. PHP's connectivity to the database consists of either a
thin layer on top of the C data access functions, or a database
abstraction layer called PEAR::DB. There is nothing to suggest that
there is any PHP-specific database access performance penalty."

> It is important to note that I am not advocating Java over PHP, or
> even Perl over PHP. I am pointing out issues that I know about with 
> PHP. Any choice of language carries the baggage of understanding the 
> limitations and shortcomings  of that language, as well as what said 
> language does well. The way to leverage your tool is to use it in 
> such a way that strengths are emphasised while
> weaknesses are minimised.

I agree, but apparently we are looking at the same data and arriving at
seperate conclusions. 

Thanks,

Nan
From rfunk at funknet.net  Thu Dec 11 11:53:04 2003
From: rfunk at funknet.net (Rob Funk)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Lightweight File Manager (though my purpose is two-fold)
In-Reply-To: <20031211045111.6a211ea0.bob@disclosed.org>
References: <20031211045111.6a211ea0.bob@disclosed.org>
Message-ID: <200312111153.05302.rfunk@funknet.net>

Robert Jewell wrote:
> Fold 1:  I was wondering what the Colug had as suggestions for a
> lightweight file manager (gui).  i'm looking for something gtk that
> plays well with freedesktop specs.  right now i'm using xffm, and it's
> pretty okay, but a little slow.

Check out Rox-Filer
http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/index.php/ROX-Filer

-- 
==============================| "A slice of life isn't the whole cake
 Rob Funk <rfunk@funknet.net> | One tooth will never make a full grin"
 http://www.funknet.net/rfunk |    -- Chris Mars, "Stuck in Rewind"

From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec 11 13:32:01 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] mkDoxy
Message-ID: <3313.24.123.50.150.1071167521.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

A colleague of mine here at TFCC and I have just released a neat little
utility that Doxygenises makefiles:

http://freshmeat.net/projects/mkdoxy/?branch_id=46174&release_id=144753&topic_id=905

You developer types out there may find it of some use.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From ima_cableguy at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 13:36:46 2003
From: ima_cableguy at yahoo.com (Ian)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] ISP Recommendations?
Message-ID: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi folks.

Does anyone have an ISP recommendation for web hosts?

I'd like to have someone in the columbus area that is
at least linux
friendly, or someone who will provide colo for a
reasonable rate.

I'm quite sure this is not on topic, so replies
off-list would be
appreciated, and sales-critters welcomed.

Ian
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec 11 15:28:43 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] ISP Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth Ian

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1

Nice to see a signed email on this list. :) (I sign when using Mutt, but am
now composing this in SquirrelMail, which does not support GPG as far as I
know.)

> Hi folks.
>
> Does anyone have an ISP recommendation for web hosts?
>
> I'd like to have someone in the columbus area that is at least linux
> friendly

Speakeasy, all the way. They support Linux, they allow (encourage?) servers,
they have great customer support... what more could you want? :)

> I'm quite sure this is not on topic, so replies off-list would be
> appreciated, and sales-critters welcomed.

I am not sure how a request for info on a Linux-friendly ISP would fail to be
on-topic for a Linux Users Group mailing list... ;)

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From skippy at skippy.net  Thu Dec 11 15:52:16 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] ISP Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> 
     <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <2779.216.136.35.122.1071175936.squirrel@www.skippy.net>

Josh Glover said:
> Quoth Ian
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>
> Nice to see a signed email on this list. :) (I sign when using Mutt, but
> am
> now composing this in SquirrelMail, which does not support GPG as far as I
> know.)

http://www.squirrelmail.org/plugin_view.php?id=153

Anyone want to volunteer to present the why and how of email signing /
encryption?

>> Hi folks.
>>
>> Does anyone have an ISP recommendation for web hosts?
>>
>> I'd like to have someone in the columbus area that is at least linux
>> friendly
>
> Speakeasy, all the way. They support Linux, they allow (encourage?)
> servers,
> they have great customer support... what more could you want? :)

I read the important part of that message to be "web hosts"; as in "web
hosting", not necessarily a general-purpose ISP.

Ian, if you're comfortable running your own server than Josh's suggestion
of Speakeasy is spot-on.  If you're looking for colocation, or just a web
hosting company, there are oodles.  Alas, I have zero familiarity with any
of them.

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 20:02:32 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <20031211130138.GB32068%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <200312081141.hB8BfcI13679@srv45.cas.org>
	 <1071121798.2386.1.camel@linux.local>
	 <20031211130138.GB32068%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1071190951.2780.2.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 05:01, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Nick Comtois (Wed 2003-12-10 09:49:58PM -0800):
> 
> > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 03:41, Mike Harrold wrote:
> >
> > > I suspect you've never heard of gcj then?
> >
> > nope, but let me guess it is an acronym based on gcc and it compiles
> > java into binary no? ok well that is not java in and of itself that
> > turns java SYNTAX into binary code.
> 
> GCC stands for the GNU Compiler Collection these days, since it contains
> compilers for more than just C (back then, it was the GNU C Compiler--
> same acronymn, different expansion--a very scalable acronymn, as it has
> turned out). gcj is the GNU Compiler for Java.
> 
> I don't see how gcj is any less related to Java than gpp is to C++.

if i liked the java syntax i would use gcj, however gcj uses the java
syntax and has nothing to do with Sun's Java. If i am not mistaken a
program compiled with gcj won't play well with windows. IF it is
completely portable then my perception of gcj is completely off and i
will then read into it ;) 

From sun at percipia.com  Thu Dec 11 17:14:39 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (sun@percipia.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Squirrelmail Themes
In-Reply-To: <2779.216.136.35.122.1071175936.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
References: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>    
    <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
    <2779.216.136.35.122.1071175936.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <1976.192.168.1.140.1071180879.squirrel@webmail.percipia.com>

Some of my user didn?t like the squirrel mail themes.

Are there any other themes available for squirrel mail?

I liked http://www.egroupware.org/ themes

Thanks

SR
From mharrold at cas.org  Thu Dec 11 17:16:23 2003
From: mharrold at cas.org (Mike Harrold)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <1071190951.2780.2.camel@linux.local> from "Nick Comtois" at Dec
	11, 2003 05:02:32 PM
Message-ID: <200312112216.hBBMGNr01498@srv45.cas.org>

> 
> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 05:01, Josh Glover wrote:
> > Quoth Nick Comtois (Wed 2003-12-10 09:49:58PM -0800):
> > 
> > > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 03:41, Mike Harrold wrote:
> > >
> > > > I suspect you've never heard of gcj then?
> > >
> > > nope, but let me guess it is an acronym based on gcc and it compiles
> > > java into binary no? ok well that is not java in and of itself that
> > > turns java SYNTAX into binary code.
> > 
> > GCC stands for the GNU Compiler Collection these days, since it contains
> > compilers for more than just C (back then, it was the GNU C Compiler--
> > same acronymn, different expansion--a very scalable acronymn, as it has
> > turned out). gcj is the GNU Compiler for Java.
> > 
> > I don't see how gcj is any less related to Java than gpp is to C++.
> 
> if i liked the java syntax i would use gcj, however gcj uses the java
> syntax and has nothing to do with Sun's Java. If i am not mistaken a
> program compiled with gcj won't play well with windows. IF it is
> completely portable then my perception of gcj is completely off and i
> will then read into it ;) 

You're not correct. gcj can compile into bytecode which will run in a
JVM the same way as any other Java compiler does. But it can also compile
to native machine code as well, removing the need for the JVM. Therefore
you could write a java app and ship either bytecode, or native code as
appropriate. Being java, you only need one version of the source...

/Mike

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 20:14:53 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
Message-ID: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>

I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of desktops
that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!

From jep200305 at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 17:33:32 2003
From: jep200305 at columbus.rr.com (Jim P)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031211173332.6964f20b.jep200305@columbus.rr.com>

Nick Comtois <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. 

Computer Success (next to Microcenter)

From blitz at post891.org  Thu Dec 11 18:34:31 2003
From: blitz at post891.org (Patrick Blitz)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Squirrelmail Themes
In-Reply-To: <1976.192.168.1.140.1071180879.squirrel@webmail.percipia.com>
References: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>    
	<3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
	<2779.216.136.35.122.1071175936.squirrel@www.skippy.net> 
	<1976.192.168.1.140.1071180879.squirrel@webmail.percipia.com>
Message-ID: <1071185673.1225.8.camel@ra-blitz>

Read through Squirrel_Prefix/themes/README.themes

you should be able to modify it yourself, and to do basicly what you
want...
otherwise, just edit the source itself (okay, not really practical)

i'm actually using my own theme right now, and it works really well

Patrick

Am Don, 2003-12-11 um 23.14 schrieb sun@percipia.com:
> Some of my user didn?t like the squirrel mail themes.
> 
> Are there any other themes available for squirrel mail?
> 
> I liked http://www.egroupware.org/ themes
> 
> Thanks
> 
> SR
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

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From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 20:30:06 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] It's all in the name
In-Reply-To: <200312112216.hBBMGNr01498@srv45.cas.org>
References: <200312112216.hBBMGNr01498@srv45.cas.org>
Message-ID: <1071192605.2781.18.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 14:16, Mike Harrold wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 05:01, Josh Glover wrote:
> > > Quoth Nick Comtois (Wed 2003-12-10 09:49:58PM -0800):
> > > 
> > > > On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 03:41, Mike Harrold wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I suspect you've never heard of gcj then?
> > > >
> > > > nope, but let me guess it is an acronym based on gcc and it compiles
> > > > java into binary no? ok well that is not java in and of itself that
> > > > turns java SYNTAX into binary code.
> > > 
> > > GCC stands for the GNU Compiler Collection these days, since it contains
> > > compilers for more than just C (back then, it was the GNU C Compiler--
> > > same acronymn, different expansion--a very scalable acronymn, as it has
> > > turned out). gcj is the GNU Compiler for Java.
> > > 
> > > I don't see how gcj is any less related to Java than gpp is to C++.
> > 
> > if i liked the java syntax i would use gcj, however gcj uses the java
> > syntax and has nothing to do with Sun's Java. If i am not mistaken a
> > program compiled with gcj won't play well with windows. IF it is
> > completely portable then my perception of gcj is completely off and i
> > will then read into it ;) 
> 
> You're not correct. gcj can compile into bytecode which will run in a
> JVM the same way as any other Java compiler does. But it can also compile
> to native machine code as well, removing the need for the JVM. Therefore
> you could write a java app and ship either bytecode, or native code as
> appropriate. Being java, you only need one version of the source...
> 
As i promised i read into it ;) gcj and it's libraries are front ends
that compile code for whatever architecture you are compiling for. There
are many front ends Fortran ADA Pascal C C++ the list goes on some more
supported than others. I pulled this from the gcj site:

"GCJ is a portable, optimizing, ahead-of-time compiler for the Java
Programming Language. It can compile:

      * Java source code directly to native machine code,
      * Java source code to Java bytecode (class files),
      * and Java bytecode to native machine code.
Compiled applications are linked with the GCJ runtime, libgcj, which
provides the core class libraries, a garbage collector, and a bytecode
interpreter. libgcj can dynamically load and interpret class files,
resulting in mixed compiled/interpreted applications.

Most of the APIs specified by "The Java Class Libraries" Second Edition
and the "Java 2 Platform supplement" are supported, including
collections, networking, reflection, and serialization. AWT is currently
unsupported, but work to implement it is in progress." 

This means lots. It sounds fun and everything and looks like a useful
tool for lots of development, like it says it is not as well supported
as the Java SDK (obviously) I also am interested how they handle the
java GUI api's. It abstracts the lower level memory management which can
be good or bad depending on what you need to do. 

I found this to answer my own question about gui's i pulled this from
the site as well.

"

                "Just look in the 'libjava' directory of libgcj and see
                what classes are there. Most GUI stuff isn't there yet,
                that's true, but many of the other classes are easy to
                add if they don't yet exist. 
                
                I think it's important to stress that there is a big
                difference between Java and the many libraries which
                Java supports. Unfortunately, Sun's promise of "write
                once, run everywhere" assumes much more than a JVM: you
                also need the full set of JDK libraries. Considering
                that new Java APIs come out every week, it's going to be
                impossible to track everything. 
                
                To make things worse, you can't simply run Sun's JDK
                classes on any old JVM -- they assume that a bunch of
                native methods are also defined. Since this native
                method requirement isn't defined by the JDK specs,
                you're effectively constrained to using Sun's JVMs if
                you want to use Sun's JDK libraries. Oh yes -- you could
                also reimplement all of those native methods yourself,
                and make sure they behave exactly as Sun's do. Note that
                they're undocumented!"
                
        
I guess my point in the end is why not just go with C C++ if you are
going to do all of this. Although it seems like an altogether useful
project.  
> /Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From colug at jmglov.net  Thu Dec 11 17:40:56 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] ISP Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <2779.216.136.35.122.1071175936.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
References: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>    
    <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
    <2779.216.136.35.122.1071175936.squirrel@www.skippy.net>
Message-ID: <2243.24.123.50.150.1071182456.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>

Quoth Scott Merrill

> Josh Glover said:
>
>> Nice to see a signed email on this list. :) (I sign when using Mutt, but am
>> now composing this in SquirrelMail, which does not support GPG as far as I
>> know.)
>
> http://www.squirrelmail.org/plugin_view.php?id=153

Cheers! I shall install this as soon as I get back home!

> Anyone want to volunteer to present the why and how of email signing /
> encryption?

Sure. I can whip something up for the January meeting, using GPG with a few
popular mail clients (I am thinking of Mutt, Mozilla/Enigmail, Evolution, and
Sylpheed). This will include a "I am not a covert operative, so why do I need
crypto?" discussion.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
From pat at linuxcolumbus.com  Thu Dec 11 17:38:23 2003
From: pat at linuxcolumbus.com (pat@linuxcolumbus.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031211223823.GA24699@linuxcolumbus.com>

On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 05:14:53PM -0800, Nick Comtois wrote:
> I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
> don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
> this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of desktops
> that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
> that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!
> 

For less than $400 I just got a AMD Athlon 2400/MB/256 DDR 2700/32 MB video
card/40 MB hard drive and case/ps.  I already had a CD-ROM.  

Pat
From mharrold at cas.org  Thu Dec 11 17:49:17 2003
From: mharrold at cas.org (Mike Harrold)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:02 2005
Subject: [COLUG] mkDoxy
In-Reply-To: <3313.24.123.50.150.1071167521.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net> from
	"Josh Glover" at Dec 11, 2003 01:32:01 PM
Message-ID: <200312112249.hBBMnHk10456@srv45.cas.org>

> 
> A colleague of mine here at TFCC and I have just released a neat little
> utility that Doxygenises makefiles:
> 
> http://freshmeat.net/projects/mkdoxy/?branch_id=46174&release_id=144753&topic_id=905
> 
> You developer types out there may find it of some use.

Any screen shots or example pages? I couldn't find anything on the website...

/Mike

From kcartwri at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 17:57:27 2003
From: kcartwri at columbus.rr.com (Kirby W. Cartwright)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <1071183447.8606.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Nick,

I just recently bought a nice computer w. case
from The Computer Factory.

The case, MB, ram, and CPU were $270.

I bought the 17" monitor for $80 at Staples.

And I bought the HDD and CD-R/W at various
sale prices around town for a total of $65.

Regards,

Kirby

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 20:14, Nick Comtois wrote:

> I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
> don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
> this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of desktops
> that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
> that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
-------------- next part --------------
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From sahillJD at wowway.com  Thu Dec 11 18:47:37 2003
From: sahillJD at wowway.com (Steven A. Hill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>

Take a look at www.retrobox.com. It's in the Columbus area.

Steven Hill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
To: <colug@colug.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:14 PM
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)


> I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
> don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
> this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of desktops
> that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
> that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 22:11:58 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	 <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
Message-ID: <1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>

I checked that site out and they have amazing deals. Have you purchased
from here before? I would like to know of your experience because it
almost seems to good to be true, and you know what they say about things
that sound to good to be true ;)

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 15:47, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> Take a look at www.retrobox.com. It's in the Columbus area.
> 
> Steven Hill
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
> To: <colug@colug.net>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:14 PM
> Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
> 
> 
> > I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> > just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
> > don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
> > this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of desktops
> > that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
> > that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From sahillJD at wowway.com  Thu Dec 11 19:46:48 2003
From: sahillJD at wowway.com (Steven A. Hill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	<00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	<1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <000801c3c049$6cc4faa0$6501a8c0@wowway.com>

Nick,

Know what you mean. I look at the prices and salivate. No, I have no direct
experience. I'll check with a friend, who told me about them. I just look at
the deals, and think that I can't go wrong with $50.00 for a machine to try
different.  When things settle down in my work and it looks like I'll have a
little time, I do intent to buy one.

Maybe others have experience with them?

--sahill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
To: "Central OH Linux User Group" <colug@colug.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)


> I checked that site out and they have amazing deals. Have you purchased
> from here before? I would like to know of your experience because it
> almost seems to good to be true, and you know what they say about things
> that sound to good to be true ;)
>
> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 15:47, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> > Take a look at www.retrobox.com. It's in the Columbus area.
> >
> > Steven Hill
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
> > To: <colug@colug.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:14 PM
> > Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
> >
> >
> > > I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> > > just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
> > > don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
> > > this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of
desktops
> > > that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
> > > that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>

From jacob at teched.net  Thu Dec 11 19:57:05 2003
From: jacob at teched.net (J. Jacob Hopkins)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	<00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	<1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <20031212005705.GB20064@noroute.teched.net>

On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 07:11:58PM -0800, Nick Comtois wrote:

Please take a look at your timezone/time configuration.

> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 15:47, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> > Take a look at www.retrobox.com. It's in the Columbus area.
>
> I checked that site out and they have amazing deals. Have you
> purchased from here before?

I have purchased many systems from RetroBox over the last few years.  I
can't say anything about their shipping as I have always picked systems
up at their warehouse.  The lead time and pickup information on their
website is accurate in my experience.

Every system I have purchased from them has run OpenBSD or a Linux
distribution very well, but I research the hardware thoroughly before
making a purchase.

I picked up an order of eight systems there today.

Jacob
jacob@teched.net
From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 23:02:45 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	 <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
Message-ID: <1071199471.3481.0.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 15:47, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> Take a look at www.retrobox.com. It's in the Columbus area.

Not only is it in the columbus area it is in Gahanna which is where i
live.... it is right down the street from me! I found a great deal on
there and it was just what i was looking for!
> 
> Steven Hill
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
> To: <colug@colug.net>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:14 PM
> Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
> 
> 
> > I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> > just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
> > don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
> > this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of desktops
> > that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
> > that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Thu Dec 11 23:07:10 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <000801c3c049$6cc4faa0$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	 <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	 <1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
	 <000801c3c049$6cc4faa0$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
Message-ID: <1071202030.3480.2.camel@linux.local>

I just ordered from retrobox a really old machine my grand total was
26.69! It is a really old 400mhz celeron machine. I will tell you how it
all goes my fingers are crossed.


On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 16:46, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> Nick,
> 
> Know what you mean. I look at the prices and salivate. No, I have no direct
> experience. I'll check with a friend, who told me about them. I just look at
> the deals, and think that I can't go wrong with $50.00 for a machine to try
> different.  When things settle down in my work and it looks like I'll have a
> little time, I do intent to buy one.
> 
> Maybe others have experience with them?
> 
> --sahill
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
> To: "Central OH Linux User Group" <colug@colug.net>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
> 
> 
> > I checked that site out and they have amazing deals. Have you purchased
> > from here before? I would like to know of your experience because it
> > almost seems to good to be true, and you know what they say about things
> > that sound to good to be true ;)
> >
> > On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 15:47, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> > > Take a look at www.retrobox.com. It's in the Columbus area.
> > >
> > > Steven Hill
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
> > > To: <colug@colug.net>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:14 PM
> > > Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am looking for an affordable machine (think around and under $400)
> > > > just to mess around with and do some odds and ends around the house. I
> > > > don't need a monitor so that slashes costs considerably, i have found
> > > > this http://www.affordablecomputers.com/ which are the kinds of
> desktops
> > > > that i am looking for i was just wondering if anyone here has a place
> > > > that they know is great or use all the time. Thanks in advance!!!
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > colug mailing list
> > > > colug@colug.net
> > > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > colug mailing list
> > > colug@colug.net
> > > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From cacepi at adelphia.net  Thu Dec 11 21:58:30 2003
From: cacepi at adelphia.net (Jason Martens)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Lightweight File Manager (though my purpose is two-fold)
In-Reply-To: <200312111153.05302.rfunk@funknet.net>
References: <20031211045111.6a211ea0.bob@disclosed.org>
	<200312111153.05302.rfunk@funknet.net>
Message-ID: <3FD92ED6.9000503@adelphia.net>

Rob Funk wrote:

> Check out Rox-Filer
> http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/index.php/ROX-Filer

     Gentoo (not the linux distro) is nice as well:

     http://www.obsession.se/gentoo/

Jason Martens
cacepi@adelphia.net

From jerrylowery at wideopenwest.com  Thu Dec 11 21:28:39 2003
From: jerrylowery at wideopenwest.com (Jerry Lowery)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	<00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	<1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <3FD927D7.6090004@wideopenwest.com>

My luck with them has been hit or miss. Bought a computer there for my 
mom which failed 48 hours after it was bought.
Also bought a laptop that I had to exchange for another. They took the 
failed computers back both times without
any trouble.

Jerry

Nick Comtois wrote:

>I checked that site out and they have amazing deals. Have you purchased
>from here before? I would like to know of your experience because it
>almost seems to good to be true, and you know what they say about things
>that sound to good to be true ;)
>
>  
>


From sahillJD at wowway.com  Thu Dec 11 21:25:11 2003
From: sahillJD at wowway.com (Steven A. Hill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	<00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	<1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
	<000801c3c049$6cc4faa0$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	<1071202030.3480.2.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <002901c3c057$2b879760$6501a8c0@wowway.com>

Nick,
Hey, dude, that's the machine I had my eye on! I'll have to settle for the
$27.00 machine.  :)
--sahill
(kidding, of course)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
To: "Central OH Linux User Group" <colug@colug.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)


> I just ordered from retrobox a really old machine my grand total was
> 26.69! It is a really old 400mhz celeron machine. I will tell you how it
> all goes my fingers are crossed.
>
>

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec 12 01:04:57 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <3FD927D7.6090004@wideopenwest.com>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	<00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	<3FD927D7.6090004@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <1071209097.4144.1.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 18:28, Jerry Lowery wrote:
> My luck with them has been hit or miss. Bought a computer there for my 
> mom which failed 48 hours after it was bought.
> Also bought a laptop that I had to exchange for another. They took the 
> failed computers back both times without
> any trouble.
> 
> Jerry

Is that laptop still working (how long have you had it?)? As long as
they are responsible enough to take them back that is pretty good.
Nobody can really expect for them to sell computers that are that old
(or that cheap) that stay alive forever.
> 
> Nick Comtois wrote:
> 
> >I checked that site out and they have amazing deals. Have you purchased
> >from here before? I would like to know of your experience because it
> >almost seems to good to be true, and you know what they say about things
> >that sound to good to be true ;)
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec 12 01:20:35 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] ISP Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>
	 <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1071209219.4150.4.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 12:28, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Ian
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> 
> Nice to see a signed email on this list. :) (I sign when using Mutt, but am
> now composing this in SquirrelMail, which does not support GPG as far as I
> know.)

To bad signing doesn't protect the words in the email from being twisted
;)
> 
> > Hi folks.
> >
> > Does anyone have an ISP recommendation for web hosts?
> >
> > I'd like to have someone in the columbus area that is at least linux
> > friendly
> 
> Speakeasy, all the way. They support Linux, they allow (encourage?) servers,
> they have great customer support... what more could you want? :)
> 
> > I'm quite sure this is not on topic, so replies off-list would be
> > appreciated, and sales-critters welcomed.
> 
> I am not sure how a request for info on a Linux-friendly ISP would fail to be
> on-topic for a Linux Users Group mailing list... ;)

From jerrylowery at wideopenwest.com  Fri Dec 12 08:00:16 2003
From: jerrylowery at wideopenwest.com (Jerry Lowery)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <1071209097.4144.1.camel@linux.local>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	<00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	<3FD927D7.6090004@wideopenwest.com> <1071209097.4144.1.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <3FD9BBE0.5040201@wideopenwest.com>

I've had it about a year now. When I got it, the CD ROM would only work 
intermittently.
They discounted the machine enough that I was able to get an used 
external CD for it. So you
could say every machine I got there I've had to return at least once. On 
the good side, they are
cool about taking the machines back and repairing or replacing them.

Jerry

>Is that laptop still working (how long have you had it?)? As long as
>they are responsible enough to take them back that is pretty good.
>Nobody can really expect for them to sell computers that are that old
>(or that cheap) that stay alive forever.
>  
>


From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec 12 16:00:57 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <002901c3c057$2b879760$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	 <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	 <1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
	 <000801c3c049$6cc4faa0$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	 <1071202030.3480.2.camel@linux.local>
	 <002901c3c057$2b879760$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
Message-ID: <1071209380.4150.7.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 18:25, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> Nick,
> Hey, dude, that's the machine I had my eye on! I'll have to settle for the
> $27.00 machine.  :)
> --sahill
> (kidding, of course)
lol don't knock cheap crap! Seriously I have an older p3 450mhz 96mb ram
machine that windows xp was crushing, I installed yoper and it performs
just about as good as my p4 1.8ghz does with winxp [no joke] 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nick Comtois" <ManifoldNick@columbus.rr.com>
> To: "Central OH Linux User Group" <colug@colug.net>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 11:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
> 
> 
> > I just ordered from retrobox a really old machine my grand total was
> > 26.69! It is a really old 400mhz celeron machine. I will tell you how it
> > all goes my fingers are crossed.
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec 12 16:00:54 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] ISP Recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
References: <20031211183646.42981.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>
	 <3865.24.123.50.150.1071174523.squirrel@mail.jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1071209219.4150.4.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 12:28, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Ian
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> 
> Nice to see a signed email on this list. :) (I sign when using Mutt, but am
> now composing this in SquirrelMail, which does not support GPG as far as I
> know.)

To bad signing doesn't protect the words in the email from being twisted
;)
> 
> > Hi folks.
> >
> > Does anyone have an ISP recommendation for web hosts?
> >
> > I'd like to have someone in the columbus area that is at least linux
> > friendly
> 
> Speakeasy, all the way. They support Linux, they allow (encourage?) servers,
> they have great customer support... what more could you want? :)
> 
> > I'm quite sure this is not on topic, so replies off-list would be
> > appreciated, and sales-critters welcomed.
> 
> I am not sure how a request for info on a Linux-friendly ISP would fail to be
> on-topic for a Linux Users Group mailing list... ;)

From ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com  Fri Dec 12 16:04:18 2003
From: ManifoldNick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <20031212005705.GB20064@noroute.teched.net>
References: <1071191279.2781.7.camel@linux.local>
	 <00a001c3c041$289b9d00$6501a8c0@wowway.com>
	 <1071197972.2781.20.camel@linux.local>
	 <20031212005705.GB20064@noroute.teched.net>
Message-ID: <1071263057.2490.1.camel@linux.local>

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 16:57, J. Jacob Hopkins wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 07:11:58PM -0800, Nick Comtois wrote:
> 
> Please take a look at your timezone/time configuration.
> 
> > On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 15:47, Steven A. Hill wrote:
> > > Take a look at www.retrobox.com. It's in the Columbus area.
> >
> > I checked that site out and they have amazing deals. Have you
> > purchased from here before?
> 
> I have purchased many systems from RetroBox over the last few years.  I
> can't say anything about their shipping as I have always picked systems
> up at their warehouse.  The lead time and pickup information on their
> website is accurate in my experience.

Their factory is right down the street from my house like 5 minutes
away! Sounds like a good deal. Do you find yourself returning those
machines (do they break)? As some have said they have had to return a
bunch of machines.
> 
> Every system I have purchased from them has run OpenBSD or a Linux
> distribution very well, but I research the hardware thoroughly before
> making a purchase.
> 
> I picked up an order of eight systems there today.
> 
> Jacob
> jacob@teched.net
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From WKehr at checkfree.com  Fri Dec 12 14:01:25 2003
From: WKehr at checkfree.com (WKehr@checkfree.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:03 2005
Subject: [COLUG] cheap (used, refurbished maybe)
In-Reply-To: <1071209380.4150.7.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <OFFC8504CE.2118DE25-ON85256DFA.0065B1E9-85256DFA.00688048@checkfree.com>

Nick stated:
>On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 18:25, Steven A. Hill wrote:
>> Nick,
>> Hey, dude, that's the machine I had my eye on! I'll have to settle for 
the
>> $27.00 machine.  :)
>> --sahill
>> (kidding, of course)
>lol don't knock cheap crap! Seriously I have an older p3 450mhz 96mb ram
>machine that windows xp was crushing, I installed yoper and it performs
>just about as good as my p4 1.8ghz does with winxp [no joke] 
>> 

I remember many years ago when the IBM AT came out.  Of course in those 
days we were running PC DOS and had no GUI overhead and no networking 
overhead and no services overhead.  There were people who got to move 
applications from an XT to the AT but a particular group of people 
demonstrated a particular concept, that of a computer is completely fast 
or powerful enough.  These people are the touch typists.  When they typed 
a document on the XT using the text mode word processors of the day, they 
would fill the type ahead buffer and have to stop typing, look to see what 
characters were lost, and then restart.  When the AT came out, it could 
run fast enough that the touch typists could type nonstop.  Any faster 
machine would not that much of a difference since the limit was now the 
speed of the typist. 

Jump ahead a few years and add a GUI and run in graphics mode and the 386 
acts like the XT did if you're a touch typist but the 486 runs like the AT 
did (Or if running Windoze a small Pentium runs like the AT did in text 
mode under DOS). 

Considering the number of old 486's used as firewalls or servers, it's 
obvious that level of power reached a threshold of usability.  I have a 
couple old Pentium 200's scattered around the house that I connect to the 
Internet so that level of power is a threshold of usability as long as I 
don't go to sites with heavy graphical stuff.   What's not so obvious is 
that every one of these old machines still in use has significantly more 
memory than they were delivered with (look at the old messages that 
describe how Coyote Linux runs with "only" 12 Meg of memory on a 486 - if 
I remember right 12 Meg cost somewhere around $450 when the 486 came out 
and I was happy to have my 4 sims at 1 Meg each). 


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From john at burroway.net  Fri Dec 12 15:23:27 2003
From: john at burroway.net (John Burroway)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071117101.2217.62.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<1071126475.2386.49.camel@linux.local> <1071117101.2217.62.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <200312121523.31407.john@burroway.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 10 December 2003 11:31 pm, Sean McHenry wrote:
> By the way, I was with VoiceStream.  Had a GREAT Ericsson T-28 phone
> (look them up on the web) and the voice quality was superb.  And from a
> phone smaller than nearly anything out there still.  My V-10 on Verizon
> sucks by comparison.  How long have you other cell phone users been
> putting up with dropped connections and echos?  These things are barely
> usable.  If I wasn't locked into a contract I would gladly jump back to
> Voicestream.  Why do I bring all this up?  They are GSM as I recall.


Try a different phone. I've been with Verizon for 4 years, and I'm on my third 
phone. I can count the number of dropped calls on one hand, and still have 
digits left over. My last phone was a Kyocera 2350 that sometimes experienced 
echos and sudden changes in volume, but my new phone is a Samsung A310, and 
I've had no problems with it.

John Burroway
john@burroway.net
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/2iPAlPT8Jbg2NqYRAkvbAJ4y1lgUTOfw3g4DPS/R1HO1NVaBtACfTvWE
6pFAOlR95/bnGUYdJ1L4flU=
=qJXw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From garyiddings at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 18:00:11 2003
From: garyiddings at yahoo.com (Gary Iddings)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Dead^H^H^H^HRed Pool
Message-ID: <20031212230011.80944.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com>

When do you think Red Hat's Business Model will change again?  

End of life for RH9 is April 30.  How about June 1?  



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Sat Dec 13 13:20:35 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <200312121523.31407.john@burroway.net>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1071126475.2386.49.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071117101.2217.62.camel@linux.local>
	 <200312121523.31407.john@burroway.net>
Message-ID: <1071339635.4744.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 15:23, John Burroway wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wednesday 10 December 2003 11:31 pm, Sean McHenry wrote:
> > By the way, I was with VoiceStream.  Had a GREAT Ericsson T-28 phone
> > (look them up on the web) and the voice quality was superb.  And from a
> > phone smaller than nearly anything out there still.  My V-10 on Verizon
> > sucks by comparison.  How long have you other cell phone users been
> > putting up with dropped connections and echos?  These things are barely
> > usable.  If I wasn't locked into a contract I would gladly jump back to
> > Voicestream.  Why do I bring all this up?  They are GSM as I recall.
> 
> 
> Try a different phone. I've been with Verizon for 4 years, and I'm on my third 
> phone. I can count the number of dropped calls on one hand, and still have 
> digits left over. My last phone was a Kyocera 2350 that sometimes experienced 
> echos and sudden changes in volume, but my new phone is a Samsung A310, and 
> I've had no problems with it.

Ya someone was trying to tell me that nextel was the best and verizon
was the worst?! Nextel employees admitted to me that they have crappy
service. With verizon I have _never_ been without a signal not that i go
anywhere crazy but i am talking about elevators basements all of that
good stuff.
> 
> John Burroway
> john@burroway.net
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQE/2iPAlPT8Jbg2NqYRAkvbAJ4y1lgUTOfw3g4DPS/R1HO1NVaBtACfTvWE
> 6pFAOlR95/bnGUYdJ1L4flU=
> =qJXw
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From smolnar at jadeinc.com  Sat Dec 13 13:09:48 2003
From: smolnar at jadeinc.com (Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SquirrelMail Login
Message-ID: <20031213130948.37ed965e.smolnar@jadeinc.com>

I'm attempting to run SquirrelMail 1.4.1 on SuSE 9.0.  I can open SquirrelMail in a browser, but it asks for a user name and password.  I don't have the faintest idea as to what they are, I've tried every combination that I can think of with no success.  Does anyone know where they are stored and/or how to change them?

Thanks in advance.
From skippy at skippy.net  Sat Dec 13 15:13:03 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] SquirrelMail Login
In-Reply-To: <20031213130948.37ed965e.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
References: <20031213130948.37ed965e.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <3FDB72CF.7080908@skippy.net>

Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D. wrote:
> I'm attempting to run SquirrelMail 1.4.1 on SuSE 9.0.
 > I can open SquirrelMail in a browser, but it asks for
> a user name and password.  I don't have the faintest idea 
 > as to what they are, I've tried every combination that
 > I can think of with no success.
 > Does anyone know where they are stored and/or how to change them?
> 
> Thanks in advance.

You should sign in with a username and password that belong to a valid 
user account on that computer.  SquirrelMail uses IMAP to talk to the 
authentication system on your computer (most likely PAM).  It does not 
use or maintain a seperate list of SquirrelMail-only user accounts.

If you have a regular user account on that SuSE 9.0 system, try logging 
in with that.  If that doesn't work, do you have IMAP installed?  Is 
{x}inetd running?  Did you properly configure SquirrelMail to talk to 
your IMAP server?

http://www.squirrelmail.org/wiki/en_US/BrowseProblemsByComplaint

The Quick-And-Dirty installation guide:
http://www.squirrelmail.org/wiki/en_US/QuickAndDirty

From garyiddings at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 13 23:16:09 2003
From: garyiddings at yahoo.com (Gary Iddings)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
Message-ID: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:46:30 -0400 Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:

>   * W3 needs better support for a number of things...  images (this
>     means Emacs needs to support GIF ...
                                   ^^^

It's curious that he wrote about GIF support the day after the 
US patent expired.  Unfortunately, the patent is still effective 
elsewhere.  See the following about GIFs: 

   http://burnallgifs.org/

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 

Even though the MP3 patent holders have not behaved like the 
LZW patent holders, the heat over GIFs reminds us why commercial 
Linux distros are prudent to not supply MP3 encoders or decoders.  



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
From McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com  Sun Dec 14 01:35:16 2003
From: McHenryTech at wideopenwest.com (Sean McHenry)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Cell Phones - was: RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071339635.4744.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	 <1071126475.2386.49.camel@linux.local>
	 <1071117101.2217.62.camel@linux.local>
	 <200312121523.31407.john@burroway.net>
	 <1071339635.4744.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1071383716.3704.6.camel@linux.local>

I have always been able to get a signal, except when visiting mom near
Nelsonville.  In Nelsonville they have a cell site now as well as the OU
area.  I am just not used to the noise, dropped calls and echos. 
Somebody also told me the echo is sometimes dependent on how loud the
earpiece is.  That would explain a fast echo but not the 1/2 second or
more that we are getting back through the systems.

I love that Ericsson T28 and it's brother the T38.  Those were great
triband GSM phones.  As a note for folks, I switched services because
they quit carrying the "T" series phones at Voicestream.  I was told
AFTER I started the new service that if there was a compatible phone
available that I could buy it direct and they would reimburse me by
taking that cost directly off my next bill(s).  I would have jumped at
that if I had know in time to drop the new service.  Those T28 and T38s
are still a bit expensive.  I would have gladly paid it to keep the
level of service up where it belongs.

Sean

On Sat, 2003-12-13 at 13:20, Nick Comtois wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 15:23, John Burroway wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > On Wednesday 10 December 2003 11:31 pm, Sean McHenry wrote:
> > > By the way, I was with VoiceStream.  Had a GREAT Ericsson T-28 phone
> > > (look them up on the web) and the voice quality was superb.  And from a
> > > phone smaller than nearly anything out there still.  My V-10 on Verizon
> > > sucks by comparison.  How long have you other cell phone users been
> > > putting up with dropped connections and echos?  These things are barely
> > > usable.  If I wasn't locked into a contract I would gladly jump back to
> > > Voicestream.  Why do I bring all this up?  They are GSM as I recall.
> > 
> > 
> > Try a different phone. I've been with Verizon for 4 years, and I'm on my third 
> > phone. I can count the number of dropped calls on one hand, and still have 
> > digits left over. My last phone was a Kyocera 2350 that sometimes experienced 
> > echos and sudden changes in volume, but my new phone is a Samsung A310, and 
> > I've had no problems with it.
> 
> Ya someone was trying to tell me that nextel was the best and verizon
> was the worst?! Nextel employees admitted to me that they have crappy
> service. With verizon I have _never_ been without a signal not that i go
> anywhere crazy but i am talking about elevators basements all of that
> good stuff.
> > 
> > John Burroway
> > john@burroway.net
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> > 
> > iD8DBQE/2iPAlPT8Jbg2NqYRAkvbAJ4y1lgUTOfw3g4DPS/R1HO1NVaBtACfTvWE
> > 6pFAOlR95/bnGUYdJ1L4flU=
> > =qJXw
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > colug mailing list
> > colug@colug.net
> > http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
> 

From john at burroway.net  Sun Dec 14 08:18:26 2003
From: john at burroway.net (John Burroway)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Cell Phones - was: RR security issues.
In-Reply-To: <1071383716.3704.6.camel@linux.local>
References: <1070923401.2719.12.camel@ra-blitz>
	<1071339635.4744.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<1071383716.3704.6.camel@linux.local>
Message-ID: <200312140818.26873.john@burroway.net>

On Sunday 14 December 2003 01:35 am, Sean McHenry wrote:
> I have always been able to get a signal, except when visiting mom near
> Nelsonville.  In Nelsonville they have a cell site now as well as the OU
> area.  

That could be part of the problem. I've learned to just take what I can get in 
terms of quality in southern Ohio. As for the echo, I experienced that with 
my old phone (and it was about a 1/2 second, just as you said), but not with 
my current one.

John Burroway
john@burroway.net

From smolnar at jadeinc.com  Sun Dec 14 09:57:32 2003
From: smolnar at jadeinc.com (Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] A Perplexing Dichotomy
Message-ID: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>

I have a most perplexing dichotomy on my LAN.  I have two AMD platforms, an Athlon and a Duron, both running the same SuSE v9.0 with identical nVIDIA video cards with the 4496 drivers.

The dichotomy is that the Duron takes almost 5 minutes to open XWinsdows while the Athlon requires under 30 seconds.

I tried using the IgnoreDisplayDevices option in XF86Config, but the only effect that it had was not to kill XWindows, it certainly didn't decrease the time required to open.

Any insights as to the problem(s)/solution(s) will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

-- 
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.		Life is a fuzzy set
Foundation for Chemistry		Multivariant and stochastic
http://web.jadeinc.com/FoundationChem
From linux at litenverden.org  Sun Dec 14 10:30:34 2003
From: linux at litenverden.org (George H. Yeager)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Problems with Mice
In-Reply-To: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <3FDC821A.7060601@litenverden.org>

I'm trying to use a PS/2 mouse with my laptop to free up a USB port. 
The USB mouse works just fine (cool little Macally wheel mouse) as a 3 
button device.  It's great.  But, it's USB.

When I boot with a PS/2 mouse, it's detected by whatever in the boot 
process, lets me choose a new mouse (PS/2 Wheel), and goes right on. 
When I get into GNOME, the mouse can only cover 1/4 of the desktop and 
is generally erratic.  At least minorly anoying, I must say.

Also, the trackpoint does not work (don't really care much), but it does 
work with RH9, which makes me think I'm headed to the advanced config 
mode pretty quickly.

Mandrake 9.2.

Any thoughts?

George

From mplemmons at ameritech.net  Sun Dec 14 10:38:41 2003
From: mplemmons at ameritech.net (Mike Plemmons)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Problems with Mice
In-Reply-To: <3FDC821A.7060601@litenverden.org>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
 <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031214103720.00b2c310@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>

At 10:30 AM 12/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm trying to use a PS/2 mouse with my laptop to free up a USB port. The 
>USB mouse works just fine (cool little Macally wheel mouse) as a 3 button 
>device.  It's great.  But, it's USB.
>
>When I boot with a PS/2 mouse, it's detected by whatever in the boot 
>process, lets me choose a new mouse (PS/2 Wheel), and goes right on. When 
>I get into GNOME, the mouse can only cover 1/4 of the desktop and is 
>generally erratic.  At least minorly anoying, I must say.
>
>Also, the trackpoint does not work (don't really care much), but it does 
>work with RH9, which makes me think I'm headed to the advanced config mode 
>pretty quickly.


What mouse protocol are you using with that PS/2 mouse?  Sometimes the PS/2 
protocol works with some mice and sometimes it is better to use the IMPS/2 
protocol.


--
Mike Plemmons
mplemmons@ameritech.net
-------------- next part --------------

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From linux at litenverden.org  Sun Dec 14 11:44:41 2003
From: linux at litenverden.org (George H. Yeager)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Problems with Mice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031214103720.00b2c310@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
	<20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20031214103720.00b2c310@pop.ameritech.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3FDC9379.2060909@litenverden.org>

<snip>

> What mouse protocol are you using with that PS/2 mouse?  Sometimes the 
> PS/2 protocol works with some mice and sometimes it is better to use the 
> IMPS/2 protocol.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mike Plemmons
> mplemmons@ameritech.net
>

<snip>

I now have the track point working AND the USB mouse working correctly. 
  The PS/2 mouse now covers the whole screen, but it won't do anything 
if I move it very slowly.  I'm guessing this has something to do with 
800/400 dpi.

Anyway, progress!

I'll check the protocol business, too.

George

From ima_cableguy at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 14 13:01:28 2003
From: ima_cableguy at yahoo.com (Ian)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] OS Commerce and Affiliate Modules
Message-ID: <20031214180128.61036.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hiyas guys;

I've been tinkering around with OS Commerce, and
wanted to know if anyone who's played with it can
recommend a decent affiliate module for it.

Specifically, I've been tinkering around with OS2Nuke,
a php-nuke engine with OSCommerce integrated in it. 
For some odd reason, the OS2Nuke Installation just
kinda sits there and thumbs its nose whenever I try to
look into the modules, or change settings, however,
I'm almost certain that I've got all the settings and
configurations correct with it.

Thanks;

Ian
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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hJcUBD7QYVPm+aoyQ4H8fT0=
=7LJW
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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
From colug at jmglov.net  Sun Dec 14 13:30:48 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Gary Iddings (Sat 2003-12-13 08:16:09PM -0800):

> Even though the MP3 patent holders have not behaved like the 
> LZW patent holders, the heat over GIFs reminds us why commercial 
> Linux distros are prudent to not supply MP3 encoders or decoders.  

...and Joe User is prudent to investigate the Open Standard wonder that is
Ogg Vorbis. [1]

-Josh

[1] http://www.vorbis.com/

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
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From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec 14 14:54:52 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] A Perplexing Dichotomy
In-Reply-To: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <1071431692.5515.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 09:57, Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D. wrote:
> I have a most perplexing dichotomy on my LAN.  I have two AMD platforms, an Athlon and a Duron, both running the same SuSE v9.0 with identical nVIDIA video cards with the 4496 drivers.
> 
> The dichotomy is that the Duron takes almost 5 minutes to open XWinsdows while the Athlon requires under 30 seconds.
> 
> I tried using the IgnoreDisplayDevices option in XF86Config, but the only effect that it had was not to kill XWindows, it certainly didn't decrease the time required to open.
> 
> Any insights as to the problem(s)/solution(s) will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance.

I have no specific solutions for you, however i will say that i despise
sax2 the SUSE video configuration program....
I have a very simple setup that has worked on _every_ linux distro i
have tried, yet on sax it will not let me set up my monitor at 1280X1024
my monitor tells me that it is set at "NEW MODE" i'd bet anything that
it has something to do with sax2 since it is obviously a config issue.

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec 14 14:57:58 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:04 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	 <20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
Message-ID: <1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 13:30, Josh Glover wrote:
> Quoth Gary Iddings (Sat 2003-12-13 08:16:09PM -0800):
> 
> > Even though the MP3 patent holders have not behaved like the 
> > LZW patent holders, the heat over GIFs reminds us why commercial 
> > Linux distros are prudent to not supply MP3 encoders or decoders.  
> 
> ...and Joe User is prudent to investigate the Open Standard wonder that is
> Ogg Vorbis. [1]
> 
> -Josh
> 
> [1] http://www.vorbis.com/

Speaking on this subject does anyone know of any GUI programs that
convert from mp3 to ogg? It would have to have the fexibility to read
id3 tags and at least do entire directories at a time. I know there are
endless perl scripts but i am trying to get people that i know to move
their collection over to ogg, i already got them on linux!

From colug at jmglov.net  Sun Dec 14 15:35:26 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20031214203526.GC8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Sun 2003-12-14 02:57:58PM -0500):

> Speaking on this subject does anyone know of any GUI programs that
> convert from mp3 to ogg? It would have to have the fexibility to read
> id3 tags and at least do entire directories at a time. I know there are
> endless perl scripts but i am trying to get people that i know to move
> their collection over to ogg, i already got them on linux!

You are a programmer. Why not take one of those aforementioned Perl scripts
(mp32ogg[1] has a high Freshmeat rating) and wrap it with Tcl/Tk for your
friends. Perl/Tk[2] is a mature and wonderful module that should make this
no more than a few days' work (or a few hours', if you are familier with
Perl/Tk already).

I am interested enough in the Ogg Vorbis project that I would be willing to
assist you in such an endeavour.

Cheers,
Josh

[1] http://freshmeat.net/projects/mp32ogg/?topic_id=119
[2] http://www.perltk.org/

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
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From bob at disclosed.org  Sun Dec 14 15:55:14 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20031214155514.55f9e5a7.bob@disclosed.org>

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:57:58 -0500
Nick Comtois <manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> Speaking on this subject does anyone know of any GUI programs that
> convert from mp3 to ogg? It would have to have the fexibility to read
> id3 tags and at least do entire directories at a time. I know there are
> endless perl scripts but i am trying to get people that i know to move
> their collection over to ogg, i already got them on linux!

I personally would not do that.  It is a bad introduction to Ogg.  Converting mp3 to ogg would result in poor quality, and can not be reversed, without further reducing of quality.   (it's like taking a picture of a picture of a picture).  The end result would be your friend having a bunch of crappy oggs, and hence a bad impression of how oggs sound.  Then, if/when they get sick of linux and they switch back to windows, they'll have to deal with oggs again.. and when they buy their portable mp3 players, oggs won't work on them, unless they get converted once again.  

I'm not by any means putting down ogg.  I use and promote ogg, but I feel like using ogg or not is a decision that a person needs to make for themselves, as there are definitely a few possible sacrifices.  If one is given all the information, it's a decision that is likely to be made, as it's a superior format.  ..the end result is that we have another user who knows why they use it, and is better able to encourage its support elsewhere and deal with any short-term new adoption problems. 

or maybe I'm just a sound snob. :)


Bob
From bob at disclosed.org  Sun Dec 14 16:06:37 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Monitor resolution ratio  (was: A Perplexing Dichotomy)
In-Reply-To: <1071431692.5515.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
	<1071431692.5515.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20031214160637.7342c091.bob@disclosed.org>

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:54:52 -0500
Nick Comtois <manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> I have no specific solutions for you, however i will say that i despise
> sax2 the SUSE video configuration program....
> I have a very simple setup that has worked on _every_ linux distro i
> have tried, yet on sax it will not let me set up my monitor at 1280X1024
> my monitor tells me that it is set at "NEW MODE" i'd bet anything that
> it has something to do with sax2 since it is obviously a config issue.
> 

This is actually probably caused by the fact that 1280x1024 isn't a 4/3 ratio, like 640x480 (1024x768, 1600x1200 etc).   This results in pixels that probably aren't "square", unless your monitor is of a funny shape.  it's hardly very noticeable..   I'm not sure where this resolution originally came from, and why so many people use it.  I know i've had problems in windows where a specific videocard or monitor would not allow me to set it to 1280x960 (unless i'm imagining that.. i know it was many a moon ago.)  Anyway, that's probably why sax2 thinks that your mode is new..  because it knows the dimensions of your monitor and knows that that resolution isn't exactly an appropriate one.

..or maybe my math and logic are wrong? :)

Bob
From bob at disclosed.org  Sun Dec 14 16:10:06 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] A Perplexing Dichotomy
In-Reply-To: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
Message-ID: <20031214161006.0382ae48.bob@disclosed.org>

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:57:32 -0500
"Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D." <smolnar@jadeinc.com> wrote:

> I have a most perplexing dichotomy on my LAN.  I have two AMD platforms, an Athlon and a Duron, both running the same SuSE v9.0 with identical nVIDIA video cards with the 4496 drivers.
> 
> The dichotomy is that the Duron takes almost 5 minutes to open XWinsdows while the Athlon requires under 30 seconds.
> 
> I tried using the IgnoreDisplayDevices option in XF86Config, but the only effect that it had was not to kill XWindows, it certainly didn't decrease the time required to open.
> 
> Any insights as to the problem(s)/solution(s) will be appreciated.
> 

So far the information doesn't really ring any bells.  What other differences are there in the systems?  I take it you have configured these systems separately, as opposed to configuring one and copying the settings to the other?  

Sorry, I seem to be clueless so far. :)


Bob
From n2uro at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 16:24:25 2003
From: n2uro at aol.com (Samuel Greenfeld)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] A Perplexing Dichotomy
In-Reply-To: <20031214161006.0382ae48.bob@disclosed.org>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
	<20031214161006.0382ae48.bob@disclosed.org>
Message-ID: <3FDCD509.1050103@aol.com>


    If you're using the NVIDIA binary drivers, the answer should be 
IgnoreDisplayDevices, as mentioned in the Nvidia driver FAQ.  What happens is 
that your display card may be buggily be saying it has interfaces enabled that 
either do not have anything plugged into them, or do not exist on the card.

    My section from /etc/X11/XF86Config looks like:


Section "Device"
     Identifier  "Geforce 3 Ti400"
     Driver      "nvidia"
     Option "IgnoreDisplayDevices" "DFP, TV" # Note TWO devices in this case
     # CRT=Analog (HD-15 connected) monitor
     # DFP=DVI (Digital) Port
     # TV=TV Out

#    Driver      "nv" # Non-binary only driver from XFree86
     #VideoRam    32768
     # Insert Clocks lines here if appropriate
EndSection


    What does yours look like?


bob@disclosed.org wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:57:32 -0500
> "Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D." <smolnar@jadeinc.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>I have a most perplexing dichotomy on my LAN.  I have two AMD platforms, an Athlon and a Duron, both running the same SuSE v9.0 with identical nVIDIA video cards with the 4496 drivers.
>>
>>The dichotomy is that the Duron takes almost 5 minutes to open XWinsdows while the Athlon requires under 30 seconds.
>>
>>I tried using the IgnoreDisplayDevices option in XF86Config, but the only effect that it had was not to kill XWindows, it certainly didn't decrease the time required to open.
>>
>>Any insights as to the problem(s)/solution(s) will be appreciated.
>>
> 
> 
> So far the information doesn't really ring any bells.  What other differences are there in the systems?  I take it you have configured these systems separately, as opposed to configuring one and copying the settings to the other?  
> 
> Sorry, I seem to be clueless so far. :)
> 
> 
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From skippy at skippy.net  Sun Dec 14 16:56:08 2003
From: skippy at skippy.net (Scott Merrill)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <20031214155514.55f9e5a7.bob@disclosed.org>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20031214155514.55f9e5a7.bob@disclosed.org>
Message-ID: <3FDCDC78.4040405@skippy.net>

Nick Comtois wrote:
> Speaking on this subject does anyone know of any GUI programs that 
> convert from mp3 to ogg? It would have to have the fexibility to
> read id3 tags and at least do entire directories at a time. I know
> there are endless perl scripts but i am trying to get people that i
> know to move their collection over to ogg, i already got them on
> linux!



Robert Jewell wrote:
> I personally would not do that.  It is a bad introduction to Ogg.
> Converting mp3 to ogg would result in poor quality, and can not be
> reversed, without further reducing of quality.   (it's like taking a
> picture of a picture of a picture).  The end result would be your
> friend having a bunch of crappy oggs, and hence a bad impression of

Converting from MP3 to Ogg is indeed a bad choice.  Re-ripping source 
audio files is the best choice.  Everyone _does_ own the CDs for all 
their music, right?  ;)  mp3 is supported on GNU/Linux - why change to 
Ogg _just to change to Ogg_?  Allow your friends to migrate to Ogg 
conveniently, ripping new source audio as it comes in, and re-ripping 
existing source media as time permits.

> how oggs sound.  Then, if/when they get sick of linux and they switch
> back to windows, they'll have to deal with oggs again.. and when they
> buy their portable mp3 players, oggs won't work on them, unless they
> get converted once again.

Newer Winampls play Ogg fine.  I'm sure other software does, too.
There are now _finally_ hardware based Ogg players available for 
purchase.  And at least one (slimp3) supports real-time transcoding of 
Ogg to mp3 for playback.

From garyiddings at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 14 18:06:44 2003
From: garyiddings at yahoo.com (Gary Iddings)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <3FDCDC78.4040405@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <20031214230644.86589.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com>

Scott Merrill <skippy@skippy.net> wrote:

> mp3 is supported on GNU/Linux 

Which distros _legally_ include MP3 support for US markets?  
Also, which Linux MP3 players not bundled with a distro are legal 
for US users?  

I heard that MusicMatch briefly had a Linux version but pulled it.  
MusicMatch would have been legitimate, because of their special 
relationship with Fraunhofer.  



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec 14 18:12:47 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Monitor resolution ratio  (was: A Perplexing Dichotomy)
In-Reply-To: <20031214160637.7342c091.bob@disclosed.org>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
	 <1071431692.5515.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20031214160637.7342c091.bob@disclosed.org>
Message-ID: <1071443563.5831.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 16:06, Robert Jewell wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:54:52 -0500
> Nick Comtois <manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have no specific solutions for you, however i will say that i despise
> > sax2 the SUSE video configuration program....
> > I have a very simple setup that has worked on _every_ linux distro i
> > have tried, yet on sax it will not let me set up my monitor at 1280X1024
> > my monitor tells me that it is set at "NEW MODE" i'd bet anything that
> > it has something to do with sax2 since it is obviously a config issue.
> > 
> 
> This is actually probably caused by the fact that 1280x1024 isn't a 4/3 ratio, like 640x480 (1024x768, 1600x1200 etc).   This results in pixels that probably aren't "square", unless your monitor is of a funny shape.  it's hardly very noticeable..   I'm not sure where this resolution originally came from, and why so many people use it.  I know i've had problems in windows where a specific videocard or monitor would not allow me to set it to 1280x960 (unless i'm imagining that.. i know it was many a moon ago.)  Anyway, that's probably why sax2 thinks that your mode is new..  because it knows the dimensions of your monitor and knows that that resolution isn't exactly an appropriate one.
> 
> ..or maybe my math and logic are wrong? :)
> 
> Bob
Not your math and logic but rather my explanation. I apologize i should
have been more clear. My monitor ie when i hit the setup button and that
little screen pops up that allows you to move the screen and degauss and
all of that, that is where it says the refresh rate and the resolution.
Now, on lorma linux and every other distribution i have had on this
computer (think 20 lol) It has said that in suse sax is doing something
very awkward. 

I think this is what the people at SUSE were trying to do and i think it
is a good idea just a bad implementation. People like me like to have
enough space to move all of the windows around but don't want to have to
be really close to see the text, so SUSE employs various methods of
giving us that added screen real estate yet keeping everything readable.

I installed suse linux on my friends Dell laptop (bought last year) sax
would not change to 1024x768 even though that is what it said it was and
of course on a laptop screen you can't change the position and zoom and
all of that manually. Since i was pressed for time and i knew that YAST
reinitialized all of the settings everytime it is run i did not edit the
x config file rather i decided to go with mandrake. Mandrake is doing
the job well, and he is starting to turn to linux for all of his day to
day needs.

Case and point -- What's up with sax?
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec 14 18:12:43 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <20031214155514.55f9e5a7.bob@disclosed.org>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	 <20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	 <1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <20031214155514.55f9e5a7.bob@disclosed.org>
Message-ID: <1071437046.5831.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 15:55, Robert Jewell wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:57:58 -0500
> Nick Comtois <manifoldnick@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> > Speaking on this subject does anyone know of any GUI programs that
> > convert from mp3 to ogg? It would have to have the fexibility to read
> > id3 tags and at least do entire directories at a time. I know there are
> > endless perl scripts but i am trying to get people that i know to move
> > their collection over to ogg, i already got them on linux!
> 
> I personally would not do that.  It is a bad introduction to Ogg.  Converting mp3 to ogg would result in poor quality, and can not be reversed, without further reducing of quality.   (it's like taking a picture of a picture of a picture).  The end result would be your friend having a bunch of crappy oggs, and hence a bad impression of how oggs sound.  Then, if/when they get sick of linux and they switch back to windows, they'll have to deal with oggs again.. and when they buy their portable mp3 players, oggs won't work on them, unless they get converted once again.  
> 
> I'm not by any means putting down ogg.  I use and promote ogg, but I feel like using ogg or not is a decision that a person needs to make for themselves, as there are definitely a few possible sacrifices.  If one is given all the information, it's a decision that is likely to be made, as it's a superior format.  ..the end result is that we have another user who knows why they use it, and is better able to encourage its support elsewhere and deal with any short-term new adoption problems. 
> 
> or maybe I'm just a sound snob. :)
> 
> 
> Bob

No no, I know what you mean. I still think that it would be nice to have
that ability you know? 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec 14 18:35:36 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <20031214230644.86589.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031214230644.86589.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1071444936.5831.45.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 18:06, Gary Iddings wrote:
> Scott Merrill <skippy@skippy.net> wrote:
> 
> > mp3 is supported on GNU/Linux 
> 
> Which distros _legally_ include MP3 support for US markets?  
> Also, which Linux MP3 players not bundled with a distro are legal 
> for US users?  
> 
> I heard that MusicMatch briefly had a Linux version but pulled it.  
> MusicMatch would have been legitimate, because of their special 
> relationship with Fraunhofer. 

This is a very good point. Loss of sound quality aside, what if it comes
time to burn all mp3's? Being locked into a proprietary format is very
un-linux-like. 

I think that so far Linux is so good because it beats everyone else at
their own game. Think about this, Windows has NetBIOS Apple has
Appletalk and Linux has NFS except linux has samba which offers an
incredibly secure, reliable, flexible, affordable, scalable alternative
to just some NT box in the back room. Plus it offers compatibility for
Appletalk. With the GIF war we can't win by offering support, we have to
throw out our very own Open format, enter PNG

PNG doesn't fit the bill entirely, while it offers tons of improvements
it is not widely support by well just IE which is what everyone is
using! In addition it doesn't offer the ability for those animations
that everyone except me seems to be so found of. 

On my personal site that i just build and tinker with i use PNG's with
transparency for a key menu effect and of course it looks rather goofy
in IE since it does not implement PNG transparency! The point is if you
are designing a site for any sort of business you have to comply to the
status quo and use GIF's 

I have converted about 7 average users over to Firebird and they love
it. Now only if it was the new standard.

Which brings up another great point. We (OpenSource'ers) have this
product that is great it shows the average user that Free software can
produce incredible results and that it doesn't take a multi billion
dollar corporation to allow you to surd the web. The only problem with
Firebird and all browsers is the somewhat difficult (to joe average)
install of Flash. I hate flash, most don't (apparently) I think that we
should really start to get Firebird out there.... like i was saying with
firebird we beat IE at it's own game.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Sun Dec 14 18:39:52 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <3FDCDC78.4040405@skippy.net>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<3FDCDC78.4040405@skippy.net>
Message-ID: <1071445191.5831.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 2003-12-14 at 16:56, Scott Merrill wrote:
> Nick Comtois wrote:
> > Speaking on this subject does anyone know of any GUI programs that 
> > convert from mp3 to ogg? It would have to have the fexibility to
> > read id3 tags and at least do entire directories at a time. I know
> > there are endless perl scripts but i am trying to get people that i
> > know to move their collection over to ogg, i already got them on
> > linux!
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Jewell wrote:
> > I personally would not do that.  It is a bad introduction to Ogg.
> > Converting mp3 to ogg would result in poor quality, and can not be
> > reversed, without further reducing of quality.   (it's like taking a
> > picture of a picture of a picture).  The end result would be your
> > friend having a bunch of crappy oggs, and hence a bad impression of
> 
> Converting from MP3 to Ogg is indeed a bad choice.  Re-ripping source 
> audio files is the best choice.  Everyone _does_ own the CDs for all 
> their music, right?  ;)  mp3 is supported on GNU/Linux - why change to 
> Ogg _just to change to Ogg_?  Allow your friends to migrate to Ogg 
> conveniently, ripping new source audio as it comes in, and re-ripping 
> existing source media as time permits.

I see your points still it would be nice to have. Especially if someone
wanted to rip from mp3 source to make it a lower quality ogg maybe to
share on the internet? Something of that nature. In any case I am not
overly picky I personally can't see why you would want anything above
128kbps (mp3) ;)
> 
> > how oggs sound.  Then, if/when they get sick of linux and they switch
> > back to windows, they'll have to deal with oggs again.. and when they
> > buy their portable mp3 players, oggs won't work on them, unless they
> > get converted once again.
> 
> Newer Winampls play Ogg fine.  I'm sure other software does, too.
> There are now _finally_ hardware based Ogg players available for 
> purchase.  And at least one (slimp3) supports real-time transcoding of 
> Ogg to mp3 for playback.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> colug mailing list
> colug@colug.net
> http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

From colug at jmglov.net  Sun Dec 14 19:27:05 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <1071445191.5831.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3FDCDC78.4040405@skippy.net>
	<1071445191.5831.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20031215002705.GD8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Sun 2003-12-14 06:39:52PM -0500):

> I personally can't see why you would want anything above 128kbps (mp3) ;)

Note that Ogg files encoded at an average rate of 128 kbps sound quite a bit
better than 128 kbps MP3s. The reason for this is the same reason that I put
the word "average" in the preceding sentence: all Ogg files use variable bit
rate (VBR), which means that in periods having low psychoacoustical complex-
ity, (such as silence) fewer bits are used. Therefore, you have more bits to
spend where they are needed.

I realise that the above is a gross simplification. If someone who under-
stands audio encoding better than I (e.g. Gary, Robb, &c) wants to step in,
feel free. :)

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys DE8A3103
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From colug at jmglov.net  Sun Dec 14 19:30:25 2003
From: colug at jmglov.net (Josh Glover)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <1071444936.5831.45.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20031214230644.86589.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com>
	<1071444936.5831.45.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20031215003025.GE8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>

Quoth Nick Comtois (Sun 2003-12-14 06:35:36PM -0500):

> Think about this, Windows has NetBIOS Apple has Appletalk and Linux has NFS

Correction: *Unix* has NFS. NFS has existed since (almost) time immemorial,
when Linux was no more than the proverbial glint in, er, his father's eye.
;)

NFS is actually not a great network file system. Carnegie Mellon's Andrew
File System (AFS) is much more robust.

Your point, however, is well-taken. A lot of Open Source projects function
as "glue", sticking disparate bits of proprietary and free software together,
a crucial function in today's networked world.

-- 
Josh Glover

GPG keyID 0xDE8A3103 (C3E4 FA9E 1E07 BBDB 6D8B  07AB 2BF1 67A1 DE8A 3103)
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From bob at disclosed.org  Sun Dec 14 19:36:08 2003
From: bob at disclosed.org (Robert Jewell)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] GIFs .....................MP3s
In-Reply-To: <1071445191.5831.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20031214041609.8898.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031214183047.GA8558%jmglov@jmglov.net>
	<1071431878.5515.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<3FDCDC78.4040405@skippy.net>
	<1071445191.5831.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20031214193608.7bc4c902.bob@disclosed.org>

> > Robert Jewell wrote:
> > > I personally would not do that.  It is a bad introduction to Ogg.
> > > Converting mp3 to ogg would result in poor quality, and can not be
> > > reversed, without further reducing of quality.   (it's like taking a
> > > picture of a picture of a picture).  The end result would be your
> > > friend having a bunch of crappy oggs, and hence a bad impression of
> > 
> > Converting from MP3 to Ogg is indeed a bad choice.  Re-ripping source 
> > audio files is the best choice.  Everyone _does_ own the CDs for all 
> > their music, right?  ;)  mp3 is supported on GNU/Linux - why change to 
> > Ogg _just to change to Ogg_?  Allow your friends to migrate to Ogg 
> > conveniently, ripping new source audio as it comes in, and re-ripping 
> > existing source media as time permits.
> 
> I see your points still it would be nice to have. Especially if someone
> wanted to rip from mp3 source to make it a lower quality ogg maybe to
> share on the internet? Something of that nature. In any case I am not
> overly picky I personally can't see why you would want anything above
> 128kbps (mp3) ;)


heh, yeah.  I do everything -q6 ogg, or ~192kbit mp3 vbr.  A majority of my digitized music is ripped straight from the cd, and it would be personally upsetting to be playing inferior music when i put so much effort into making sure i have the capability to do high quality. (i.e. a nice soundcard -> amp -> speakers) :)

so yeah, sorry.  i'll be of no help for finding mp3->ogg gui stuff.  If i were to do it, i'd just use mencoder. :)



Bob
From sun at percipia.com  Sun Dec 14 19:45:42 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (sun@percipia.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:05 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Kerberos setup
In-Reply-To: <20031214180128.61036.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031214180128.61036.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1536.68.252.47.116.1071449142.squirrel@webmail.percipia.com>


Hi,

http://www.ofb.net/~jheiss/krbldap/howto.html

I have just found this article about Kerberos setup. Currently I am using
ldap, samba, autofs.

Before trying this I would know any one in this list using this Kerberos
setup.

Is there any problem with this kind of Kerberos Setup?


Thanks


From smolnar at jadeinc.com  Sun Dec 14 23:05:11 2003
From: smolnar at jadeinc.com (Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:06 2005
Subject: [COLUG] A Perplexing Dichotomy
In-Reply-To: <3FDCD509.1050103@aol.com>
References: <20031214095732.627698c3.smolnar@jadeinc.com>
 <20031214161006.0382ae48.bob@disclosed.org>
 <3FDCD509.1050103@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031214230159.03353e20@mail.jadeinc.com>

My thanks to everyone who replied.

At 04:24 PM 12/14/2003, you wrote:

>    If you're using the NVIDIA binary drivers, the answer should be 
> IgnoreDisplayDevices

That was exactly the solution!  I had tried it, but it made no 
difference.  I think that my mistake was in the format of the option.  The 
first time I tried it I didn't give the option any arguements.  Once I did 
that, it worked - the Drone now boots in < 30 seconds.

Thanks, again!

>, as mentioned in the Nvidia driver FAQ.  What happens is that your 
>display card may be buggily be saying it has interfaces enabled that 
>either do not have anything plugged into them, or do not exist on the card.
>
>    My section from /etc/X11/XF86Config looks like:
>
>
>Section "Device"
>     Identifier  "Geforce 3 Ti400"
>     Driver      "nvidia"
>     Option "IgnoreDisplayDevices" "DFP, TV" # Note TWO devices in this case
>     # CRT=Analog (HD-15 connected) monitor
>     # DFP=DVI (Digital) Port
>     # TV=TV Out
>
>#    Driver      "nv" # Non-binary only driver from XFree86
>     #VideoRam    32768
>     # Insert Clocks lines here if appropriate
>EndSection
>
>
>    What does yours look like?
>
>
>bob@disclosed.org wrote:
>>On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:57:32 -0500
>>"Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D." <smolnar@jadeinc.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I have a most perplexing dichotomy on my LAN.  I have two AMD platforms, 
>>>an Athlon and a Duron, both running the same SuSE v9.0 with identical 
>>>nVIDIA video cards with the 4496 drivers.
>>>
>>>The dichotomy is that the Duron takes almost 5 minutes to open XWinsdows 
>>>while the Athlon requires under 30 seconds.
>>>
>>>I tried using the IgnoreDisplayDevices option in XF86Config, but the 
>>>only effect that it had was not to kill XWindows, it certainly didn't 
>>>decrease the time required to open.
>>>
>>>Any insights as to the problem(s)/solution(s) will be appreciated.
>>
>>So far the information doesn't really ring any bells.  What other 
>>differences are there in the systems?  I take it you have configured 
>>these systems separately, as opposed to configuring one and copying the 
>>settings to the other?
>>Sorry, I seem to be clueless so far. :)
>>
>>Bob
>>_______________________________________________
>>colug mailing list
>>colug@colug.net
>>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug
>
>_______________________________________________
>colug mailing list
>colug@colug.net
>http://www.colug.net/mailman/listinfo/colug

Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.                     Life is a fuzzy set
Foundation for Chemistry                     Multivariant and stochastic
http://web.jadeinc.com/FoundationChem 

From manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com  Mon Dec 15 00:49:22 2003
From: manifoldnick at columbus.rr.com (Nick Comtois)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:06 2005
Subject: [COLUG] When will I know?
Message-ID: <1071467362.5601.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hey I hate to beat a dead bird here but those of you who got a computer
from retrobox.com do they email you when it is ready to pick it up?
Thanks in advance!

From sun at percipia.com  Mon Dec 15 12:18:30 2003
From: sun at percipia.com (sun@percipia.com)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:06 2005
Subject: [COLUG] Setting different E-mail address
In-Reply-To: <1071467362.5601.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1071467362.5601.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3559.192.168.1.140.1071508710.squirrel@webmail.percipia.com>

Hi all,

Linux I use mail command to send out E-mail. But it takes the default user
name as from and return E-mail address. I would like to set different
E-mail address for from/reply (like my hotmail or yahoo id).

Is there a way I can set different address using mail command?

Thanks
SR


From lefevre.10 at osu.edu  Mon Dec 15 12:39:52 2003
From: lefevre.10 at osu.edu (Steve Lefevre)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:06 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RAID roundup
References: <1071467362.5601.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <002b01c3c332$72095060$0600a8c0@imi>

Hey folks -

I know this topic has been beat to death before, but let's go over it one
more time.


I have two questions:

What software RAID levels do you feel okay about under linux? I have 3 80 GB
IDE hard drives. I'm debating whether to set them up as a software RAID 5,
or just wait until I have money to get a 3ware RAID card.

Secondly, if you don't like software RAID5, what do you think of simple disk
mirroring in software?

The machine is intended to be my home file server.

More broadly, what RAID implementations do you use/recommend?  I'm talking
both RAID level and hardware/software implmentation.

From alden at math.ohio-state.edu  Mon Dec 15 12:53:26 2003
From: alden at math.ohio-state.edu (Dave Alden)
Date: Sat Jan  8 01:33:06 2005
Subject: [COLUG] RAID roundup
In-Reply-To: <002b01c3c332$72095060$0600a8c0@imi>
References: <1071467362.5601.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<002b01c3c332$72095060$0600a8c0@imi>
Message-ID: <20031215175326.GA18017@math.ohio-state.edu>

Hi,

On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 12:39:52PM -0500, Steve Lefevre wrote:
> What software RAID levels do you feel okay about under linux? I have 3 80 GB
> IDE hard drives. I'm debating whether to set them up as a software RAID 5,
> or just wait until I have money to get a 3ware RAID card.

I'm running software RAID 1 on all of my servers here at work